IVT Ecolane ASHP - any owners out there?

[testom]

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

Just to add to this if anyone is thinking about purchasing one. 

 

The spec is for a max 3a start current and there has been some concern raised about these units just hitting full power and staying there. With a clamp meter on, its fairly clear to see that they actually ramp up over about 15-20 seconds to full power then level off, modulating as they go. They power down in a similar fashion with the load dropping off and then the fans finally powering down. 

 

Its probably what  I would expect from a Mitsubishi unit tbh, all in they seem pretty well made. 

 

I can fully confirm to  @PeterW message. 

 

Also I wish to write few words in terms of Defrosting. 

I had a chance to witness such moment when pump switch itself to defrosting mode. 

Entire procedure took about 90sec.

Durring this process compressor speed went down a bit.

Temp at the hot outlet from the unit dropped during this process from 50C to 13C.

After this short moment unit returned to normal mode. 

 

By the way of update:

for last 24 days my ASHP consumed 685kWh.

Total working time 336h.

Average load 2.04kW

 

 

[joe90]

@PeterW well done mate, glad you didn’t have the problems I had with mine!!!

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, testom said:

 

I can fully confirm to  @PeterW message. 

 

Also I wish to write few words in terms of Defrosting. 

I had a chance to witness such moment when pump switch itself to defrosting mode. 

Entire procedure took about 90sec.

Durring this process compressor speed went down a bit.

Temp at the hot outlet from the unit dropped during this process from 50C to 13C.

After this short moment unit returned to normal mode. 

 

By the way of update:

for last 24 days my ASHP consumed 685kWh.

Total working time 336h.

Average load 2.04kW

 

 

 

Thanks @testom

 

That would indicate your ASHP running for 14 hours per day which seems high - has it been cold where you are ..??

[Jeremy Harris]

Ours is currently running, on average, for around 1 hour per day over the past four days, but the range is quite wide.  It ran for around 3 hours on Wednesday, then didn't run at all on Thursday, came on again for about two hours on Friday, and ran for about an hour today.  Total energy consumption by the heat pump over that period has been around  5 kWh, so around 1.25 kWh/day.  Outside air temperatures have varied from well below freezing on Wednesday night, to a maximum of around 9 deg C today.  Wednesday wasn't typical though, as we had the front door open for two or three hours (moving stuff) and it happened to be a very cold day (and much colder night).

[testom]

14 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

Thanks @testom

 

That would indicate your ASHP running for 14 hours per day which seems high - has it been cold where you are ..??

Your calculation is correct.  It is what it is. 

 

According to my energy certificate my house requirement on heat is 100W/m2 when -18C outside.

As a reminder- my house has 186m2 of living space.

Also I have plugged this heat pump to standard central heating installation based on radiators. 

For last 3 weeks average outdoor temp  + 2C durring the day,  and -3C durring the night.

Pump still set to (1) MAX 77% of power, and for most of the time (when is runing) it is sitting on 53% of power.

I did try to increase it output power to 88% - and yes, average running time went down, but energy consumption was higher than normal. 

I dont mine if it runs for such long time. If I would have underfloor heating I can imagine that concrete floor would work as a buffer, and ASHP would run differently and at lower temp set.

 

 @JSHarris not sure how you doing this that your pump runs approx 1h/day. Respect.

You must been living in so called passive house, and your energy needs are super duper low,  or you have set internal termostat to 15C  .

 

 

I have to admit - I have never used so little(cost) energy in the past(heating oil) to keep my house warm for 1 month period. 

Last 24 days electricity consupion by ASHP will cost me aprox 85Euro.  In the past for same period I used approx 200l of heating oil (160Euro). 

 

By the way - I have set to my self a 5000kWh limit of electrical energy I can use durring this seson. I will be in touch with you gents from time to time and I will keeps you updated on usage.

   

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

10 minutes ago, testom said:

 @JSHarris not sure how you doing this that your pump runs approx 1h/day. Respect.

You must been living in so called passive house, and your energy needs are super duper low,  or you have set internal termostat to 15C  .

 

 

Thanks, you're right, it's a passive house, so barely needs any heating.  The thermostat is set to 20.5 deg C, which seems comfortable enough.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, testom said:

Your calculation is correct.  It is what it is. 

 

According to my energy certificate my house requirement on heat is 100W/m2 when -18C outside.

As a reminder- my house has 186m2 of living space.

Also I have plugged this heat pump to standard central heating installation based on radiators. 

For last 3 weeks average outdoor temp  + 2C durring the day,  and -3C durring the night.

Pump still set to (1) MAX 77% of power, and for most of the time (when is runing) it is sitting on 53% of power.

I did try to increase it output power to 88% - and yes, average running time went down, but energy consumption was higher than normal. 

I dont mine if it runs for such long time. If I would have underfloor heating I can imagine that concrete floor would work as a buffer, and ASHP would run differently and at lower temp set.

 

So when it's -18 outside, your house will need 18.6KW of continuous heat input, which your heat pump will not be able to deliver.  My house is not as well insulated as @JSHarris but at that temperature will need 2Kw of heat, which my 5Kw ASHP will easily deliver.

 

You would probably do better if you fitted high capacity low temperature radiators, the lower temperature water the ASHP has to heat, the better it's efficiency  will be.

[testom]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

So when it's -18 outside, your house will need 18.6KW of continuous heat input, which your heat pump will not be able to deliver.  My house is not as well insulated as @JSHarris but at that temperature will need 2Kw of heat, which my 5Kw ASHP will easily deliver.

 

You would probably do better if you fitted high capacity low temperature radiators, the lower temperature water the ASHP has to heat, the better it's efficiency  will be.

18kW is the "size" of my oil boiler. And yes 9kW heat pump will newer deliver enough heat to cover fully my requirements, but I need 18kW of heat at -18C. 

So for now relax   - only -3C during the night. 

I also tried to convinced my other half to demolish entire floor to get underfloor heating, but how to say - the answer was ....NO!!! , so yes indeed good idea, time to think how to get low temp radiators, cos this would be a "low invasive project", so my moaning wife will keep her mouth shut  .

 

[PeterW]

Ok been doing some more digging into these IVT beasts and found a very surprising thing with them ... They have a very high outlet temperature..!!

 

On 100% with a wilo head of 2.5m giving the middle range of flow to the unit I was seeing 71c today off a 7c air temperature and a circa 11A current. That is a CoP of around 3.27 (voltage is 250v +/- 1v) On 88%, with a reasonable flow I was seeing 61c and 9A giving CoP of 3.52 which I don’t think is bad at all. 

 

So digging a bit further it appears as though these units are designed to go to a lot higher temperatures than “normal” units and have different compressors. I did find an old BSI report that gives some pretty good numbers but interestingly never takes the units below step 4 - they either use 65% or 100% for the testing. 

 

I plan to hike up the flow rate slightly to see if the flow temperature drops. 

 

@testom if you want to see the flow temperature, set DIP 2 to ON on SW2

[ProDave]

21 minutes ago, PeterW said:

On 100% with a wilo head of 2.5m giving the middle range of flow to the unit I was seeing 71c today off a 7c air temperature and a circa 11A current. That is a CoP of around 3.27 (voltage is 250v +/- 1v) On 88%, with a reasonable flow I was seeing 61c and 9A giving CoP of 3.52 which I don’t think is bad at all. 

 

How can you calculate COP only knowing the input power?

[PeterW]

50 minutes ago, ProDave said:

How can you calculate COP only knowing the input power?

 

You can work out an approximation based on max output (9kw) and power figure (33-100%) as an ASHP is fairly accurate across the power curve if you have a static outside temperature. Mitsubishi provide the curves and these units have a static curve with no ability to change so I assume they haven’t been changed.  I will give the tank test a go that’s linked in the report as it’s less than an hour according to them however I need to check the volumes. 

[ProDave]

But does that not assume it is always delivering the rated 9KW?

 

I would have thought the actual output would vary somewhat so you can't really measure the COP unless you also measure the output (which you could do knowing the flow rate and flow and return temperature)

[testom]

20 hours ago, PeterW said:

Ok been doing some more digging into these IVT beasts and found a very surprising thing with them ... They have a very high outlet temperature..!!

 

On 100% with a wilo head of 2.5m giving the middle range of flow to the unit I was seeing 71c today off a 7c air temperature and a circa 11A current. That is a CoP of around 3.27 (voltage is 250v +/- 1v) On 88%, with a reasonable flow I was seeing 61c and 9A giving CoP of 3.52 which I don’t think is bad at all. 

 

So digging a bit further it appears as though these units are designed to go to a lot higher temperatures than “normal” units and have different compressors. I did find an old BSI report that gives some pretty good numbers but interestingly never takes the units below step 4 - they either use 65% or 100% for the testing. 

 

I plan to hike up the flow rate slightly to see if the flow temperature drops. 

 

@testom if you want to see the flow temperature, set DIP 2 to ON on SW2

Highest temp I get at 77% is 62C. Never tried on full power. But I will play with it in the day or two. Interesting.

BTW @JSHarris - I did quoted online low temp radiators from local supplyer. Replacing all 14 radiators will cost me ... 3300Euros.

Question is- will this be wort it of doing? 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by testom

[vfrdave]

I would consider making an offer on one of these but the controls are what worry me. Can anyone offer advice as to how I could do this?

[PeterW]

What controls ..??!!

 

Basically it has two sets of terminals - a permanent 240v via a 25A C curve RCB(O), and a set of 4 terminals that have A1-3 and A5 on them. These are 24v / GND terminals. 

 

To make it run, you ground any one or group of the A1-3 to the GND on the supplied 24v transformer. It’s no more complex than that... As it doesn’t have the Mitsubishi controller you can’t change the curves etc but there is a lot of detail on what you can do in the service manual. 

 

You could make it as simple as use the 240v live from a time clock to power up a pump and the transformer. There is a pipe stat with it that cycles the pump once it hits the set return temperature but that is about it. 

 

PM me if you want more info

 

 

[PTUK]

Hello everyone,

I’m new here and looking for some advice please. We live in rural Lincolnshire with no mains gas or oil. DHW and heating is currently supplied from a Gledhill Torrent OV350L (no coils) cylinder, heated by a wood burning stove and immersion heater.

We are just finishing an extension and the plan is to heat only the 44m2 extension using underfloor heating and IVT Ecolane ASHP. I bought the ASHP from eBay and it came with the same grey control box and Siemens pipe stat as in the pics before.

Can we just connect the 4 port UFH manifold straight to the ASHP with no buffer tank?

 

Thanks you

 

Pieter

[Gav_P]

On 03/12/2018 at 12:24, PTUK said:

Hello everyone,

I’m new here and looking for some advice please. We live in rural Lincolnshire with no mains gas or oil. DHW and heating is currently supplied from a Gledhill Torrent OV350L (no coils) cylinder, heated by a wood burning stove and immersion heater.

We are just finishing an extension and the plan is to heat only the 44m2 extension using underfloor heating and IVT Ecolane ASHP. I bought the ASHP from eBay and it came with the same grey control box and Siemens pipe stat as in the pics before.

Can we just connect the 4 port UFH manifold straight to the ASHP with no buffer tank?

 

Thanks you

 

Pieter

Hi Pieter and welcome,

 

I am by no means an expert, or even much of an amateur when it comes to this, but as long as you include the usual things like expansion vessel, pump, filter, etc then you could have a simple loop from the ASHP to the UFH manifold.

 

It’s probably not the most efficient set up, but it’s very similar to my setup, but I have 3 zone valve (1-UFH, 2-rads, 3-DHW). Which works for me.

 

Now ive said this, there will probably be a gaggle of ASHP nerds coming along to correct me shortly. ?

[jack]

Hi Pieter, and welcome.

 

In general, there'll be a minimum fluid volume that the ASHP needs. In my case (Panasonic), the minimum is something like 70L, which is more than covered by the UFH loops (edited to add: nearly 800m of loops, I believe) and long flow and return pipework.

 

You'd need to check for your model - my guess is that you may need a buffer tank if you only have 4 loops and a high capacity ASHP (mine's only 5kW).

[Jeremy Harris]

Adding to what @jack has said about the minimum volume, I can add that our UFH is very marginal in terms of meeting the (unspecified) minimum volume for our 7 kW ASHP and goes into anti-short cycle mode without a buffer tank. 

 

We have around 300m of UFH pipe in total, over ~75m² of floor area.  The volume can be worked out fairly easily from the pipe length, as the 16mm OD UFH pipe has a volume that's near enough 0.1 litre per metre, so our 300m of pipe has a volume of around 30 litres. 

 

Because of this low volume we needed to add a small buffer tank of 70 litres, although I opted to use one with a high efficiency coil in so that I didn't have to use 100 litres of expensive antifreeze/inhibitor.  The effect is the same, in that the ASHP effective "sees" a volume of 100 litres, but the actual volume of antifreeze/inhibitor in the ASHP and UFH circuit is only around 35 litres.

[Ed Davies]

50 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

7 kWh ASHP

 

Please fix this typo, people are already confused enough about these units.

[Jeremy Harris]

Done...

[Ed Davies]

Are you sure? For me know, even after a page refresh, it still reads:

 

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

minimum volume for our 7 kWh ASHP and goes into anti-short cycle mode without a buffer tank

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Looks OK to me.

[Ed Davies]

Thanks, does to me too, now. Odd, could there be caching problems for individual posts in a forum like this, even though new posts are showing?

[PeterW]

On 03/12/2018 at 12:24, PTUK said:

Hello everyone,

I’m new here and looking for some advice please. We live in rural Lincolnshire with no mains gas or oil. DHW and heating is currently supplied from a Gledhill Torrent OV350L (no coils) cylinder, heated by a wood burning stove and immersion heater.

We are just finishing an extension and the plan is to heat only the 44m2 extension using underfloor heating and IVT Ecolane ASHP. I bought the ASHP from eBay and it came with the same grey control box and Siemens pipe stat as in the pics before.

Can we just connect the 4 port UFH manifold straight to the ASHP with no buffer tank?

 

Thanks you

 

Pieter

 

Hi

 

what is the spec for the walls etc and heat load / loss ..?

 

The IVT needs a minimum flow rather than a minimum capacity - running it on a Wilo I’ve got it set to about 2.6m head which works fine on about 26m of 22mm pipework (flow and return)

 

If it’s an open manifold with very little blending then you may want to set the power to 3 or 4 at most on the IVT and set the stat on the return flow to about 28c (assuming flow of 35c)