What is an acceptable standard of skimming

[AliG]

Hi,

 

We are on the cusp of really falling out with our builder.

 

We have had to move into the house which is way over schedule, they are just finishing off the decorating.

 

In many man places the wall finish seems unacceptable.

 

The architect came in and made the builder reskim and repaint two ceilings.

 

But the more I look at the walls and ceilings the more the finish looks poor. Basically the finish is rippled in many places as well as having many rough patches.

 

I am not clear who is doing a poor job, the plasterer or the painters, but ultimately the builder is responsible. My wife wants the painters fired, the woodwork doesn't look great either tbf. They have not primed the edges of MDF in the door frames so it looks very poor compared to the ready primed woodwork.

 

We have paid an absolute fortune to have all walls and ceilings painted as it is supposed to be a better finish, but in most places it actually looks worse than our previous house that was taped.

 

I don't want to be unreasonable but the finish is letting down, what is a very expensive build.

 

I noticed in my last house the painters had some kind of large spinning brush sander that they took across the walls before they painted. Here they just seem to be going around with filler and sandpaper.

 

The builder says just to leave it until snagging time and indeed the architect has decided after some work has been redone to just do the same as he wants them to finish and not delay any further. The trouble is that we won't really be finished if they then have to come back into every single room and start sanding and repainting. I just don't understand the attitude of the building trade that you do a poor job and then keep coming back to redo it.

 

Any thoughts on where they may be going wrong?

 

It is quite hard to capture this in pictures but I just had a go

 

This is the reskimmed and painted ceiling (I think they plan to further sand and paint it)

 

 

My daughter's bedroom

 

 

A 45degree joint

 

 

This is part of probably the worst wall in the house

 

 

My daughter's ceiling again

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by AliG

[ProDave]

Firstly, a properly skimmed wall or ceiling needs no sanding. It is totally different to taping and filling where a soft filler is used and sanding the joint is normal.

 

Sorry to say, you need a different plasterer.  It really is a job where you want a personal recommendation. We are pleased with the plaster finish in our house, but I knew the plasterer.

 

I know you contracted the job to a builder so did not employ the plasterer directly, but he would have been off my site by now.

[AliG]

The builder's argument is that it was dark when they were skimming, but I said that was nonsense as often people must plaster in far from ideal light conditions.

 

TBF I couldn't see the imperfections then.

 

The painters put a mist coat onto the walls which is supposed to highlight imperfections before painting, but the that wall I described as the worst one they just went ahead and painted last week.

 

All the skimming was done some time ago, the poor standard is only coming to light now that we are in and they are painting which highlights it.

 

In some areas it is absolutely fine and as it is a large house there will be areas that need redone, but some areas are just laughably bad. In our last house we had ceilings skimmed after leaks upstairs and they were absolutely immaculate.

 

When shown bad areas now the builder just says that they will come back and sand them down.

Edited April 7, 2018 by AliG

[Guest Alphonsox]

I'm no expert in this - but I wouldn't be at all happy with this finish.

Our place was skimmed by a pedantic, perfectionist plasterer (and team) then spray painted with three coats of white emulsion with no sanding or other surface preparation required. The resulting walls are almost optically flat. To me this looks like an issue with the quality of the plastering. The fact that your architect has seen it necessary to direct the builder to re-skim a couple of ceilings already speaks volumes. A competent plasterer who take pride in their works doesn't need to be told.

 

[nod]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Firstly, a properly skimmed wall or ceiling needs no sanding. It is totally different to taping and filling where a soft filler is used and sanding the joint is normal.

 

Sorry to say, you need a different plasterer.  It really is a job where you want a personal recommendation. We are pleased with the plaster finish in our house, but I knew the plasterer.

 

I know you contracted the job to a builder so did not employ the plasterer directly, but he would have been off my site by now.

I agree with Dave Poor

No sanding 

I skimmed five bedrooms last week There will be no ripples or filling 

To many are one coating and running over the skim with plastic float or spatula 

[ultramods]

If it was too dark to skim the walls that isn't your problem, the builder or plasterer should have had suitable lighting.

 

I wouldn't accept that, can you withhold payment until its rectified?

[AliG]

We have 5% held back until the job is finished and signed off by the architect. My wife had a massive go at the builder on Friday night. We were supposed to be in last year and finally had to just move in 3 weeks ago.

 

We are reasonably relaxed about timescales as long as things are done properly.The problem is that no matter how well the house is built and how much money you have spent, the final finish is what people will see and what gives an impression of the house.

 

The house is now 90% painted, I have told the builder that I shouldn't have to go around checking the work that is his job. It is only now that we are in that the poor quality finish is obvious. It is by no means everywhere, but it is in a lot of places.

 

Considering how far behind we are already the thought of having to go around and wholesale replanted and paint rooms is depressing.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by AliG

[nod]

Just now, nod said:

I agree with Dave Poor

No sanding 

I skimmed five bedrooms last week There will be no ripples or filling 

To many are one coating and running over the skim with plastic float or spatula 

This is one of about thirty large ceilings that I quoted to redo on a block of apartments

We just redid the worst ones 

The agent said they looked good till they were painted

Speed floated 

 

The irony was that we were undercut for the original job 

 

[ultramods]

Could you suggest to the builder that you will find a third party plasterer and pay direct but you will take the cost out of the 5%.

 

I had similar issue with a bathroom once, i complained and the company sent back the same plasterer to "fix" the mess - obviously he wasn't able to fix it.

[nod]

The two guys in the picture are Russian tapers who do taping and jointing for me 

They had stated to fill some of the rooms as the contractor was addament he couldn’t afford to have the lot re skimmed 

Vlads Dnglish is coming on 

Whdn I showed him the ceilings 

He said OH F*** 

[AliG]

I had just a quick reccie round the house.

 

Spot lights are the plasterer's friend. In the rooms with spots either the ceilings are much better or you just cannot see it as they don't create shadows on the ceiling.

 

I don't know at what point it is considered unacceptable.

 

I took a picture of a room that isn't perfect but might be considered passable?

 

I looked at the redone lounge ceiling. It was done by the guys who rendered the outside of the house where they have done a fantastic job. It is now flat but has a few lines in it as shown in the picture above. I think that is the kind of thing that could be fixed with a little sanding but you cannot fix an undulating ceiling with sanding.

 

I'd guess around 10-20% of the plastering is poor if I look at the whole house.

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by AliG

[AliG]

33 minutes ago, nod said:

This is one of about thirty large ceilings that I quoted to redo on a block of apartments

We just redid the worst ones 

The agent said they looked good till they were painted

Speed floated 

 

The irony was that we were undercut for the original job 

 

 

It's not quite that bad but close in some places

[Jeremy Harris]

I wholeheartedly agree, that workmanship is just crap.

 

I was very, very fussy about our skimming. Our old house was taped and filled and it really, really annoyed me.  With the evening or early morning  sun shining every joint ripple in the ceilings was irritatingly  visible, even through the Artex that had been applied to try and hide it.  As a consequence, an early decision was to spend the extra and have the plasterers work another week to skim all the walls and ceilings.

 

When our decorator came to look around and quote he commented that there was virtually no painting prep needed, as the plasterers had done a really good job.  The interesting thing is that the really good brickie we used recommended the plasterers to render the big retaining wall, they did such a good job of that, that I didn't even bother tendering for plastering the house, I just gave them the job.  In turn they recommended the decorator, who also turned out to be an ace floor tiler.

 

There's absolutely no substitute, IMHO, for getting one very good trades person to recommend another.  Good people will be very reluctant to recommend someone with lower standards than their own.  The sad fact is that you don't often find this out until too late to change things.  We were lucky, we only had one really bad (as in bloody dangerous) trades person on site (for one day only) and one mediocre chap that I'd frankly not ever use again.  All those I'd recommend are listed on our blog - I've not linked to anyone that I wasn't 100% happy with, which I'm sure has pissed off a couple of people, but that's just tough.

[Gone West]

@AliG I'm sorry but the skimming is appalling. We were very lucky with our plasterer who was a perfectionist and the result was that there was no need to fill or sand any of his work. He also did our Venetian plaster, most of our ground floor tiling and laid our outdoor stone slabs. If you are a perfectionist at one job you are at all jobs. You just need to have all the areas you are unhappy about replastered by somebody who is competent because you will be living with it a long time and regretting it if you don't.

[ToughButterCup]

11 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I wholeheartedly agree, that workmanship is just crap.

[...]

The sad fact is that you don't often find this out until too late to change things.

[...]

 

And

12 hours ago, nod said:

The two guys in the picture are Russian tapers who do taping and jointing for me 

[...]

 

We all need to know a @nod, who knows a Russian taper, who knows a ..... and so on and infinitum.

 

For me part of the issue is having the guts to be

11 hours ago, JSHarris said:

[...]

very, very fussy about our  [whatever]

[...]

 

and the knowledge skills to spot poor work in progress. And the balls to draw it to the workman's attention.

 

"And what the Hell do you (I) know about it?"

[Vijay]

I feel sad for you that you have to deal with crap like this. They can see your house and what you're trying to achieve for your family and think it's OK to charge a probably descent chunk of money and give you a crap job.

 

I can assure you, you will always notice those ripples and marks if you leave it. I had a plasterer recommended to me my a neighbour who  was in the trade, apparently this guy did a lot of work in Hampstead houses and was spot on. He did the plastering in my loft conversion and a few other walls and it always annoys me when I'm up there. there are marks exactly like yours - and it was done 20 years ago!!!

 

It's a real shame that these "professionals" can't see how bad their work is and are happy to have no pride in what they leave a customer

Edited April 8, 2018 by Vijay

[nod]

3 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

And

 

We all need to know a @nod, who knows a Russian taper, who knows a ..... and so on and infinitum.

 

For me part of the issue is having the guts to be

 

and the knowledge skills to spot poor work in progress. And the balls to draw it to the workman's attention.

 

"And what the Hell do you (I) know about it?"

I think someone has already stated

that a good trades person will never recommend a poor trades person

Good ones are alway busy So book in advance 

I’ve work in until September 

[Declan52]

You think they look bad now if you fully paint them up and let them sit once the sun hits them you will regret it. They will look woeful. 

Let them redo 1 wall/ceiling and if it ain't up to scratch then inform your builder they are gone and for him to get good plasterers in.

The working in the dark excuse is horse shit as well. Good plasterers know roughly by the size of the wall/ceiling how long they will have to get the skim on and work with it before it gets to dark to see what your at and won't start a new bit if they don't have time. Also they all have lights just incase.

[HerbJ]

This was the only  major problem on our build, though we did get it resolved in the end. The trouble was that we lost weeks, no months, and had to decorate some rooms a couple of times.

 

As @Declan52  points out, every time we thought we had resolved it through the summer going into autumn, the changing sun and resulting shadows highlighted further areas that required resolution.. Even after we thought everything was sorted and we decided to move in, fitting curtains/blinds highlighted more problem areas as the light was  again  altered  with new  shadow patterns. 

 

It is all fixed now  and the contractor did deal with all the costs for repair but we had to deal with the delays and some redecorating costs. 

 

So, the lesson to be learnt is be very firm and get it fixed now - only do it the once.so you can move forward ...

 

Best of luck

[nod]

1 hour ago, Declan52 said:

You think they look bad now if you fully paint them up and let them sit once the sun hits them you will regret it. They will look woeful. 

Let them redo 1 wall/ceiling and if it ain't up to scratch then inform your builder they are gone and for him to get good plasterers in.

The working in the dark excuse is horse shit as well. Good plasterers know roughly by the size of the wall/ceiling how long they will have to get the skim on and work with it before it gets to dark to see what your at and won't start a new bit if they don't have time. Also they all have lights just incase.

Spot on Declan

 

 

[AliG]

Thanks for all the comments guys. I’ve spent the day on a plane going away for work and have left my wife to deal with the builder. 

 

I’m not being helped at the moment by getting a promotion which means I am doing a whistle stop world tour. But this is what pays for it all. Some days I would love to be on site all the time. When I was on holiday a couple of weeks ago I felt it helped a lot.

 

In truth my wife is more no nonsense than I am so hopefully she’s getting things sorted.

 

The builder is very willing, but I suspect lack of notice means he sometimes gets who is available not who is good.

 

When I land I’ll see what result she got from speaking to him today.

 

Thanks

[Steph188]

Hi AliG, 

I've just come across this post whilst researching bad plastering. 

 

We have had a pretty dodgy plastering job on a huge extension and renovation. We've just noticed, like you, that some of the plastering is really below par. Ripples, bad joins, scrim tape grinning through etc. We've spoken to him and he is quite defensive saying that the mist coat would cover it, but the areas that have been mist coated, you can still see the ripples and scars etc. 

How did you get over the issue with yours? Did you have to get your ceilings reskimmed or did you just live with it? We had a bad plastering job at our last house and I know that even when we tried to remedy it, it was still noticeable in places. Are the things you noticed before as noticeable now? We have no interior lights yet either so we can't know what it'll look like once they are in. 

 

All help is appreciated. 

Thanks, 

Steph 

[Pete]

11 minutes ago, Steph188 said:

Hi AliG, 

I've just come across this post whilst researching bad plastering. 

 

We have had a pretty dodgy plastering job on a huge extension and renovation. We've just noticed, like you, that some of the plastering is really below par. Ripples, bad joins, scrim tape grinning through etc. We've spoken to him and he is quite defensive saying that the mist coat would cover it, but the areas that have been mist coated, you can still see the ripples and scars etc. 

How did you get over the issue with yours? Did you have to get your ceilings reskimmed or did you just live with it? We had a bad plastering job at our last house and I know that even when we tried to remedy it, it was still noticeable in places. Are the things you noticed before as noticeable now? We have no interior lights yet either so we can't know what it'll look like once they are in. 

 

All help is appreciated. 

Thanks, 

Steph 

I am not a plasterer but can plaster and this is atrocious work. ( there are plasterers on this forum who will give their professional opinion). Not sure what you can do about it now as skimming again is a lot of work/expense depending on who is going to do it as I would not use the plaster you have used again. 

Easifill is great for going over slight blemishes but again is a lot of work. Hope you can get it sorted.

[Big Jimbo]

The plastering on this thread is about as good as my bricklaying........ If anybody ever wants a good laugh, give me a shout. A 5% retention will, i doubt, be enough to put that right.

[Steph188]

The best part is this (excuse the video it's a screen recording) of a board which is (just a bit!!) proud...!! 

 

The whole house was back to brick, new stud work, new brickwork where applicable, really shouldn't have been a tough job. No amount of paint would hide some areas!