Ground bearing slab curing

[flanagaj]

I have found a company to come and pour and 'finish' the concrete slabs next week.  As always, everything is vague and nothing is done with a formal contract.  Just been told the job has been booked in.   

Should the company be responsible for applying a curing agent as they have already said that they don't provide polythene sheeting to cover it to aid curing.
 

[Gus Potter]

You have my phone number.. you know the rules, text me first as I'm a bit deaf and I'll help you out for free for half an hour. 

 

You just keep digging yourself a hole you fanny! 

 

We have I believe talked already engaged by email?

 

I'll give up a bit of my time for free 30 minutes and that's it. This is my last and final offer. You are so out of your depth it’s bonkers.. but I think you are just stubborn and that is is you downfall. 

 

You are not even out the ground yet! On balance of probability you are going to regret this. You seem to be falling for, say the casual internity trades folk. You are off your head!

 

It's time son to get your big boys hat on and wake up and smell, the coffee.

 

This is tough love but I recommend that you also call/ pm  @Nickfromwales for a very quick chat. His time is not free ( I think you get 15 -30 min pro bono) but it could be the best call you ever make! 

 

You have not even got out the ground yet!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Gus Potter

[flanagaj]

7 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

You have my phone number.. you know the rules, text me first as I'm a bit deaf and I'll help you out for free for half an hour. 

 

You just keep digging yourself a hole you fanny! 

 

We have I believe talked already engaged by email?

 

I'll give up a bit of my time for free 30 minutes and that's it. This is my last and final offer. You are so out of your depth it’s bonkers.. but I think you are just stubborn and that is is you downfall. 

 

You are not even out the ground yet! On balance of probability you are going to regret this. You seem to be falling for, say the casual internity trades folk. You are off your head!

 

It's time son to get your big boys hat on and wake up and smell, the coffee.

 

This is tough love but I recommend that you also call/ pm  @Nickfromwales for a very quick chat. His time is not free ( I think you get 15 -30 min pro bono) but it could be the best call you ever make! 

 

You have not even got out the ground yet!

It's not that simple @Gus Potter unfortunately, we moved to an area where I have zero connections.  Previously, I knew many, but it's too far to travel.  The downfall was in thinking that I could find reputable trades who would do a good job.  This has been an absolute mare and it's akin to the Wild West.  Shysters who are either shit or think they can take you for a ride.   Our last bricklayer was exactly that.  As soon as I picked him up on his levels being out, I'm convinced he binned us off, but continued for 5 days before walking off site and onto a new house build for a builder. 

 

In hindsight, a single contractor for a shell would have been the best option, but I'm here now and I've just got to get slabs done and then the next lot of bricklayers can start mid August.   Unlike many on here, we are not blessed with deep pockets and have to watch every penny.  This build is being done on the basis of keeping to the Estimators QS and that means me managing trades. 

 

The question I have for everyone is what is this site for?  I ask questions, because either they are not specified in the LABC manual or the trades person I'm dealing with does not fill me with confidence, that they know what they are doing.   

 

Just for the record, the concrete company is a large Southampton based outfit and not some bloke who happened to overhear a conversation in the pub.   So by that very nature, I'd expect them to be professional and make sure the slabs are done to industry standard and protected from shrinkage post pour.

 

I also don't know what you mean by 'big boy hat'. Am I to start getting violent with these people when they deliver substandard work?  I've already sacked two bricklayers, so it's not as if I cannot have the conversations.  It's finding reputable individuals.

 

 

[saveasteading]

@flanagaj it's just that some of us have done this for decades. It is never easy for us either because every job is different And because people are people.

We may get a little cross when our advice is ignored. But hey, we could be wrong.

Listen to the advice.whether you take it is up to you.

No violence, but make big decisions to take advice or not.

 

I sympathise, but never assume that building is easy, or that the man in the white van has expertise. And keep asking and listening.

[flanagaj]

5 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

@flanagaj it's just that some of us have done this for decades. It is never easy for us either because every job is different And because people are people.

We may get a little cross when our advice is ignored. But hey, we could be wrong.

Listen to the advice.whether you take it is up to you.

No violence, but make big decisions to take advice or not.

 

I sympathise, but never assume that building is easy, or that the man in the white van has expertise. And keep asking and listening.

I appreciate that you guys have been doing this for a long time and I suspect that you are all very fortunate to have created a 'goto' list of trades for certain jobs.  Most of my questions are around using the forum to either get validation on a specific process or where I simply cannot find the detail I require.  I shoulder blame partly there by not choosing a decent architect who in theory is the person who should detail every aspect.

 

[Mr Punter]

You need to confirm with the contractor that they will immediately spray the curing compound on the finished slab.  If the water evaporates from the slab too quickly the concrete will not properly cure.  That said, the house will not fall down.

[Spinny]

Flanagaj, I think maybe you are trying to be a builder without being a builder.

I write with sod all experience except my own troubled extension. We ended up having to ditch a bad builder and then decided (as we had a dry shell by then and good alternate builders were not available for 18months plus) to continue by bringing in trades to get to completion. It is not an easy process because unlike a proper builder...

1/ You do not have a little black book with several good contractors for each and every trade - people you know from experience are capable and you can work with.

2/ You do not have any real clout with trades because for them you are a one off customer - a few £k's or £10k's of business - builders will be known sources of regular business

3/ Some trades people may be wary of a novice builder, or sometimes take advantage.

4/ You lack deep knowledge and experience of your own - of trade specifics, trade tendencies, what to watch for, how to specify a job

These things do make it difficult. Finding good trades can be a lengthy process where the only proof is in eating the pudding.

 

These things affect timeline enormously, you can never call in a favour from someone, no one will ever call you looking for work, you are potentially the job that gets delayed in favour of others.

 

For your slab specifics, do you have a concrete mix specification defined that is what they are going to meet. My SE sepcified the mix for us. And where you don't have a contract only a price/purchase order/invoice then I would suggest always emailing to ensure you have something in writing which defines your requirements. In case of dispute at least you then have something more than verbal conversations and a price. You can even then write down what the contractor has told you verbally about the job, answers to your queries, etc.

 

But try and get someone you can talk to, I've always been able to talk to my SE or Architect or the QS that dealt with closing my original builder contract, to get bits of advice or a site visit.

 

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, flanagaj said:

I shoulder blame partly there by not choosing a decent architect who in theory is the person who should detail every aspect.

Even with a ‘decent’ architect, I think you’d remain about as disappointed as you currently are, but have a lot less money left to patch your wounds with.

 

That’s my opinion; it’s based on real life, direct, factual, events and experiences where ‘top shelf’ architects with stunning websites / portfolios couldn’t hang a fecking shelf.

[Spinny]

Ah, the ever present and necessary friction between designer and maker, between design engineer and manufacturing engineer, between architect and builder, between fashion designer and seamstress/tailor.

 

I did have architect, SE, and builder all in disagreement over insulating my abnormal corner. Chippy came in, said I can do that in PIR that is tighter than 1960's hot pants, and did - 4 weeks of debate over with.

 

We all curse each other, we all need each other.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Spinny said:

necessary friction between designer and maker

Not necessary.

I've been both. Sometimes in one camp or the other. Mostly doing both together

Turn friction into bouncing off and it is very satisfying and productive.

Good designers and good makers who can accept suggestions will flourish.

 

 If there is friction then it's not for long / only once.

[JohnMo]

5 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Not necessary.

I've been both. Sometimes in one camp or the other. Mostly doing both together

Turn friction into bouncing off and it is very satisfying and productive.

Good designers and good makers who can accept suggestions will flourish.

 

 If there is friction then it's not for long / only once.

Couldn't agree more. Doesn't matter industry you are in.

 

1 hour ago, Spinny said:

ever present and necessary friction between designer and maker

Definitely not a necessary unless one side or the other is an arse or full of their own self importance (maybe the same thing). Had one designer that wouldn't entertain any input from me (not really the designer but his boss), so the company got sacked on the spot very early in the design process. Design is a two way process, it may look pretty if it can't be built easily it's a rubbish design by a poor designer.

 

But back to the slab, your structural design should detail rebar and concrete specification fully. If it doesn't it should. Scottish system makes this all blissfully easy, structural design not completed - no building warrant - no permission to build.

 

Curing agent or not depends on few things, such as outside temperature, so in winter in Scotland is completely different from summer in England. Get advise from your structural engineer, as they should be giving you the structural design certificate.

[Russell griffiths]

I was recommended a screed company, I was told they are absolutely shit hot, I met the main man and he knew what he was talking about, I asked about screed curl at the edges and covering the screed to slow down evaporation. 
he said it wasn’t necessary. 
 

so I did some more reading and asked a few questions. 

they did the screed, an hour after they had gone I hosed it down with a very fine mist spray, I then covered it in polythene and also covered all the windows to stop the sunlight coming in. 
 

the result is I have the flattest most level screed I’ve ever seen. 
 

you need to satisfy yourself how it should be done, and any short comings in your opinion you need to make up. 
 

buy the polythene and install it yourself or do you due diligence and insist on a curing agent. 
if you think they are good why do they not want to cover it ?

[saveasteading]

7 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

the flattest most level screed I’ve ever seen. 

The pumped screed we have used is cementitious but has lots of additives so my opinion (no research) curl is not  a thing.

If using a cement and sand screed by old fashioned tamping and trowelling, the water content is very low so much the same applies.

 

With structural quality concrete I've never seen curl either, in some hundreds of buildings. I guess the mesh or fibres help somewhat but again I've never heard of it being a thing.

 

Anybody's  other experiences would  be be interesting.

13 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

I then covered it in polythene

Can do no harm and may do a lot of good. Would you mind reporting back on how much condensation is there tomorrow?

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, Spinny said:

Ah, the ever present and necessary friction between designer and maker, between design engineer and manufacturing engineer, between architect and builder, between fashion designer and seamstress/tailor.

 

I did have architect, SE, and builder all in disagreement over insulating my abnormal corner. Chippy came in, said I can do that in PIR that is tighter than 1960's hot pants, and did - 4 weeks of debate over with.

 

We all curse each other, we all need each other.

Can you post some pics from the 60’s please, just to be sure it’s a robust solution. 

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

I was recommended a screed company, I was told they are absolutely shit hot, I met the main man and he knew what he was talking about, I asked about screed curl at the edges and covering the screed to slow down evaporation. 
he said it wasn’t necessary. 
 

so I did some more reading and asked a few questions. 

they did the screed, an hour after they had gone I hosed it down with a very fine mist spray, I then covered it in polythene and also covered all the windows to stop the sunlight coming in. 
 

the result is I have the flattest most level screed I’ve ever seen. 
 

you need to satisfy yourself how it should be done, and any short comings in your opinion you need to make up. 
 

buy the polythene and install it yourself or do you due diligence and insist on a curing agent. 
if you think they are good why do they not want to cover it ?

I’ve used him for over 25 years   zero jobs have ever curled so no worries there, but nobody would argue with any sensible garnish of belts and braces.

 

Unless the additional actions were administered to the detriment of the job and that then caused a failure that would otherwise not have occurred if ‘left well alone’.

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Good designers and good makers who can accept suggestions will flourish.

It’s quite refreshing to adopt this approach, even up to today where I had an opinion, client had another, point raised, pros/cons/caveats discussed comprehensively; clients choice was the “winner”, ownership of the decision removed from my hands, and on to the next problem we went.