Looks like the party is over....

[SteamyTea]

22 hours ago, Oz07 said:

They don't want a physics degree to understand how to work their heating

The physics behind heating system is, at worse, so low that a 12 year old probably learns it at school.

 

[DamonHD]

By agency I mean "to make it do what the user need,s at reasonable cost" rather than necessarily "to understand each of the 50 control parameters".  I had near neighbours who had a HP in new (badly built) social housing with no explanation on use, ending up with a ~£4k heating bill ~15Y ago.  Agency would avoid that.

[JohnMo]

3 minutes ago, DamonHD said:

Agency would avoid that.

How?

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Gee, the discussion above in this thread says the normal consumer has little or idea of any technical aspects of a heating system. So why would you want to give them something to fiddle with, which will ultimately end with no heating being available, when they get it wrong. And an expensive bill to return everything back to working again.

 

The normal person or indeed most people, want, a single box on the wall that says hotter or colder the heat pump then runs at lowest cost to achieve this in a suitable timeframe.

 

Don't all heat pumps (except Vaillant and couple of others) use modbus anyway. Which is pretty much open source once you map the addresses.

I think the point of having open architecture is not that consumers have to (or even can) fiddle with things. 

 

It's to allow 3rd party integration - so don't like the controller that comes with your heatpump? Just use another one. No proprietary lock in via API/protocol. 

 

No having to reverse engineer comms protocols and registers - just look up the published and freely available document. 

 

And most of all, no legal bars (DRM, copyright etc) to 3rd party integration.

 

Look at what is happening to some cars now - you can't fit a pattern or second hand part because the Ecu won't recognise them without an online activation. 

 

Imagine boiler or HP companies being able to require that any work be done by an "authorised" technician who has had to pay for all the software tools to activate the boiler /hp

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Look at what is happening to some cars now - you can't fit a pattern or second hand part because the Ecu won't recognise them without an online activation. 

Was chatting to a van driver the other day, he had fitted some 'nice' wheels (actually is a red light to me if I see non standard wheels, especially on a van), the dash lit up that he had 'low tyre pressure.

Apparently this is common and has to have the ECU/Sensors recalibrated.

 

Good I say as that red light to means a twat is driving.

[DamonHD]

42 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

How?

By ensuring the that the system tells them just what they need to know to get there, and helps them along, assuming it's possible.  ("Heat the house for zero cost with all the windows open when it's freezing outside" doesn't have a good solution!)  And not expecting the end user to have a physics degree: "folk physics" seems to be bad in general.

[SimonD]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Don't all heat pumps (except Vaillant and couple of others) use modbus anyway. Which is pretty much open source once you map the addresses.

 

You don't really need that. The manufacturers now have apps with online access so they (installer or manufacturer)) can tweek the WC curves, or change room influence factors remotely if customer says they're too cold or too hot. Some are now locking this function away from the customer coz they don't want them playing with them. All part of the ongoing customer service... For better or for worse, depending on how you view things. 

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

I think the point of having open architecture is not that consumers have to (or even can) fiddle with things. 

 

It's to allow 3rd party integration - so don't like the controller that comes with your heatpump? Just use another one. No proprietary lock in via API/protocol. 

 

No having to reverse engineer comms protocols and registers - just look up the published and freely available document. 

 

And most of all, no legal bars (DRM, copyright etc) to 3rd party integration.

 

Look at what is happening to some cars now - you can't fit a pattern or second hand part because the Ecu won't recognise them without an online activation. 

 

Imagine boiler or HP companies being able to require that any work be done by an "authorised" technician who has had to pay for all the software tools to activate the boiler /hp

 

Id suggest the sceanrio you outline in your last post is where we end up. Because, sooner or later, given that the "third parties" seem incapable of making stuff work properly, one of the Boiler and or HP manufacturers offer a complete system that does everything from a control perspective.

 

To be honest, i find it perverse that nobody does (to the best of my knowledge). A car manufacturer doesnt build a car, and then leave the steering wheel and pedals out for a third party to fit. And with good reason. If they did, some people would screw it up and say the car was crap. Which just damages the brand, or even the concept of a car.

 

So just like heat pumps.  Where everyone says they are crap, but, the pump itself is just fine. Its the people fitting and, more relevant here, the control systems are not up to it from a consumer aspect.

 

 

 

 

[SimonD]

1 minute ago, Roger440 said:

To be honest, i find it perverse that nobody does (to the best of my knowledge).

 All decent heat pump manufacturers provide their own control systems and any decent installer buys the heat pump and control kit from the manufacturer. It really is as simply as that. They're not really that complicated to set up during commissioing either. 

[Roger440]

10 hours ago, JamesPa said:

 

 

Well perhaps your posts have succeeded in confusing me.  So far as I can tell from what you have said above you see no advantage in having a heat pump, only disadvantage.  Yet you have/are investigating getting one?  I can only apologise for my confusion.

 

Having a heat pump is a disadvantage. Primarily because of cost, secondly, finding someone who can do it properly, and, to a much lesser degree, reliance on the grid being available, which for most is a non issue, but a small issue for me. Given, as per my ramblings elsewhere, i end up with a bigger generator, that problem goes away.

 

The eco4 scheme, assuming i qualified, would fund the HP, solar and insulationl at no cost to me at all. Im sure you can appreciate, that fundamentally changes things.

 

If that option does not come to fruition, then yes, i revert to my previous position of sticking with oil. As, financially its the only option that makes any sense at all.

 

Seems fairly simple to me. Im not sure ive ever deviated from that. 

[Roger440]

5 minutes ago, SimonD said:

 All decent heat pump manufacturers provide their own control systems and any decent installer buys the heat pump and control kit from the manufacturer. It really is as simply as that. They're not really that complicated to set up during commissioing either. 

 

So what has the debate over the last few pages been about? Why all the chat about WC and having to re-visit, tweak etc. Thats been discussed on here numerous times before.

 

 

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

 

Don't all heat pumps (except Vaillant and couple of others) use modbus anyway. Which is pretty much open source once you map the addresses.

I am not aware my LG does.  I have highlighted before, I have fitted about 4 different heat pumps, and every single one has a completely different electrical interface to the others.  Unlike a basic gas or oil boiler that has power, and "call for heat"

 

Isn't it about time the manufacturers banged their heads together and agreed on a single control interface so the installers only have to learn one scheme and it can be applied to all heat pumps?

[SimonD]

12 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

So what has the debate over the last few pages been about? Why all the chat about WC and having to re-visit, tweak etc. Thats been discussed on here numerous times before.

 

 

 

Good question! But with all the manufacturers I've trained with and some I'm going to train with, there's remote access so no need to re-visit to tweak, unless there's a problem with the system that needs someone on site. I've only just skimmed the thread but there is quite a bit of misunderstanding and, dare I say it, ignorance about heat pumps, the market and how much decent installers make even with the BUS grant on here. 

[JamesPa]

34 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

10 hours ago, JamesPa said:

 

 

Well perhaps your posts have succeeded in confusing me.  So far as I can tell from what you have said above you see no advantage in having a heat pump, only disadvantage.  Yet you have/are investigating getting one?  I can only apologise for my confusion.

 

Having a heat pump is a disadvantage. Primarily because of cost, secondly, finding someone who can do it properly, and, to a much lesser degree, reliance on the grid being available, which for most is a non issue, but a small issue for me. Given, as per my ramblings elsewhere, i end up with a bigger generator, that problem goes away.

 

The eco4 scheme, assuming i qualified, would fund the HP, solar and insulationl at no cost to me at all. Im sure you can appreciate, that fundamentally changes things.

OK.  If I understand you correctly you may fit a heat pump if (because?) its paid for by the taxpayer, even though you believe it may cause you hassle and don't believe there will be any comfort or running cost benefits and also mention above several other features that you consider are disadvantages.  That, particularly given the strength with which you express above your views on the disadvantages, is probably why I'm confused.  Furthermore I don't really know how to respond to this position (other than to pity any contractor who gets involved) so I wont comment further on this particular matter.

Edited 1 hour ago by JamesPa

[SimonD]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Unlike a basic gas or oil boiler that has power, and "call for heat"

 

Not any more they don't if you want them to be efficient - all manufacturers provide their own controls for this too. Some of them are Opentherm or can be used with opentherm alongside their own controls, like Viessmann , which do allow third party opentherm controls, but unfortunately not all boiler maufacturers implement Opentherm in the same way so the same level of control may not be available.

[JamesPa]

12 minutes ago, SimonD said:

28 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Unlike a basic gas or oil boiler that has power, and "call for heat"

 

Not any more they don't if you want them to be efficient 

You mean unlike condensing boilers that are set up so they rarely if ever condense, which so far as I can tell is common practice. 

 

My plumber, when he visited to do the last annual service before it was superseded by and ASHP, had the cheek to reset the flow temp to 75C (without telling me) even though I had deliberately turned it down to 50C.  We have a long way to go it seems in terms of CPD or am I missing something?  

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

The manufacturers now have apps with online access so they (installer or manufacturer)) can tweek the WC curves, or change room influence factors remotely if customer says they're too cold or too hot. Some are now locking this function away from the customer coz they don't want them playing with them. All part of the ongoing customer service... For better or for worse, depending on how you view things. 

 

That would be a nightmare. I read enough posts where the original installer no longer wants to deal with a particular installation (or customer), or they have ceased trading, or the customer just wants to try someone else. If the HP is locked to a particular remote professional account what would happen then?