exploring options

[Hecateh]

My thoughts, all along, have been to have wet underfloor heating throughout.

Reading another thread, can't remember whose, has made me want to think about it a bit more.

I will be living there alone and don't intend to move until I have to be carried out. (Hopefully in a box as the thought of .... no I'll not go there)

House will be well insulated to modern standards BUT not passive by any means (didn't find this forum early enough)

 

Options I  am currently considering

Wet underfloor heating and hot water coming from a combi

Wet underfloor on the ground floor, electric elsewhere rarely used except in dressing room (I like a cold bedroom and other rooms won't be used that often)

All electric including immersion heater for showers

All electric with electric showers and instant hot water features to sinks

 

Experiences, pros, cons or alternatives to consider please.  

 

Added floor plans for info with downstairs loo added and bathroom to become just a mini en suite off second bedroom.  (Second bedroom and ensuite will get 3 to 6 days use a year)

 

[ProDave]

Forget electric showers unless you like showering under a dribble.

 

If mains gas is available then it's a no brainer. Decent size combi or system boiler and unvented hot water tank.

 

I would go UFH

 

Wet UFH downstairs, radiators everywhere else with individual trv's so can be turned up / down / off as required or even UFH throughout on all floors. Remember a key feature of UFH is an individual thermostat for every room so unused rooms turned right down and your bedroom set to your cool temperature.

[Hecateh]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Forget electric showers unless you like showering under a dribble.

 

If mains gas is available then it's a no brainer. Decent size combi or system boiler and unvented hot water tank.

 

I would go UFH

 

Wet UFH downstairs, radiators everywhere else with individual trv's so can be turned up / down / off as required or even UFH throughout on all floors. Remember a key feature of UFH is an individual thermostat for every room so unused rooms turned right down and your bedroom set to your cool temperature.

Thanks  what you have said is what I thought I wanted BUT having read so much on here, I'm starting to second guess myself.  

This group is so helpful.  If I had been on here 18 months ago I think I would be in a very different place now

[SteamyTea]

One thing to consider is the physical size of any heating/DHW system.

Gas Combi is probably the smallest.  As soon as you get into storing energy i.e. DHW, then you need more space.

Now if it is just you, and the occasional guest, it need not take up much room (your house has about double the footprint of mine).  I live alone, but have had a lodger in the past, and a 200 lt cylinder was fine.

If I was starting from scratch, I would fit a Sunamp, with PV and an ASHP (no gas and I know how they work).

 

As odd as this sound, I would also consider what I have at the moment, Economy 7.  The capital outlay is very low and I am a low user (sub 4 MWh/year).  There are limitations, but being single, they are easy to work around.

I find it is always worth doing an estimate on an E7 heating and DHW system as a reality check when looking at quotes for other systems.

 

You may need to fit a water softener as well, they take up a bit of room.  I don't have the problem.  Partly why my DHW cylinder has lasted 30 years, but I do need to change the lower element now, but scared to as the cylinder may buckle and spring a leak.

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by SteamyTea

[jamiehamy]

I was pottering about tonight waiting on Ikea to not turn up (THANKS ikea) and enjoying walking on the carpet without shoes . Most areas will be carpeted and we chose a pretty thick pile and good underlay to make it feel as cosy and soft as possible. It struck me that we couldn't have had that if we went for UFH. A friend has UFH and carpet and the carpet feels very hard and not the feel we wanted. I have no issue with UFH - I just felt it was one complexity I wasn't confident handling on our first build and with the carpets, was the right decision for us. Worth bearing in mind. J

[Hecateh]

16 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

One thing to consider is the physical size of any heating/DHW system.

Gas Combi is probably the smallest.  As soon as you get into storing energy i.e. DHW, then you need more space.

Now if it is just you, and the occasional guest, it need not take up much room (your house has about double the footprint of mine).  I live alone, but have had a lodger in the past, and a 200 lt cylinder was fine.

If I was starting from scratch, I would fit a Sunamp, with PV and an ASHP (no gas and I know how they work).

 

As odd as this sound, I would also consider what I have at the moment, Economy 7.  The capital outlay is very low and I am a low user (sub 4 MWh/year).  There are limitations, but being single, they are easy to work around.

I find it is always worth doing an estimate on an E7 heating and DHW system as a reality check when looking at quotes for other systems.

 

You may need to fit a water softener as well, they take up a bit of room.  I don't have the problem.  Partly why my DHW cylinder has lasted 30 years, but I do need to change the lower element now, but scared to as the cylinder may buckle and spring a leak.

 

Learning a whole new world of acronyms on this site - luckily can work a lot of them out and google usually supplies the rest (DHW = domestic hot water)

My footprint has grown from an original estimate of about 60m2 as a straightforward bungalow before this split level option (still bigger than yours) 

The rest of your post is, I think, the kind of thing I'm thinking of as a possibility but not sure what it all means or the implications - and yes hard water is an issue.  I currently have a softener added to my shower and use filtered water for drinking, kettle and coffee filter.  (All a bit of a bugger as I grew up about 10 miles away with no scale issues)

Do you have any more info about the implications of going this way

Will also have an expanse of South West facing roof which god be utilised 

 

[Hecateh]

14 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

I was pottering about tonight waiting on Ikea to not turn up (THANKS ikea) and enjoying walking on the carpet without shoes . Most areas will be carpeted and we chose a pretty thick pile and good underlay to make it feel as cosy and soft as possible. It struck me that we couldn't have had that if we went for UFH. A friend has UFH and carpet and the carpet feels very hard and not the feel we wanted. I have no issue with UFH - I just felt it was one complexity I wasn't confident handling on our first build and with the carpets, was the right decision for us. Worth bearing in mind. J

 definitely get where you are coming from.  My current ultimate luxury is walking into the bathroom, where I have fitted electric UFH.  That is so so nice.  But I do love the feeling of soft carpet underfoot too. Need to take so many things into consideration. I think a rug by my bed and in one or two other places might help that transition.  Carpet is really comfortable if it is warm or your feet are already warm.

What's brilliant is being able to consider these things before hand.  Even when making compromises it so helps to know the compromises you are making

 

 

[PeterW]

@Hecateh are you having MVHR..?? (Another acronym..)

 

With your upside down house design I would go for Wet UFH in the slab on the ground floor and then work out if air rads would benefit the lesser used rooms. 

 

Is the staircase open enough to allow heat transfer between floors ..?

[Bitpipe]

We have resin on GF (on a suspended timber floor) and it feels really, really nice underfoot with (or without) UFH - a warm and slightly squashy floor. Bathrooms are tile with UFH. 

 

Rest of upper house is engineered wood and no UFH under that but still feels warm under foot. Basement (insulated concrete slab, no UFH) is Karndean, cooler than wood but still not cold.

 

Rugs here and there break up the wood but I really went off carpet after our last new build house and two small kids. Carpets were wool and decent quality - we got a professional cleaner in a few times and DIY annually the rest and the practically black water that we were disposing of was disgusting - goes to show how much dirt and dust embeds itself in, despite very regular hoovering. 

 

With hard surfaces throughout I find the hoover out more often as dirt, dust & pet hair are more obvious but equally the floors are clean and a decent multi surface steam mop brings them back to new once a week, removing anything the hoover missed.

[Lesgrandepotato]

UFH everywhere! It’s glorious 

[Hecateh]

23 minutes ago, PeterW said:

@Hecateh are you having MVHR..?? (Another acronym..)

 

With your upside down house design I would go for Wet UFH in the slab on the ground floor and then work out if air rads would benefit the lesser used rooms. 

 

Is the staircase open enough to allow heat transfer between floors ..?

Would have had it if I had known about it earlier but my builder hasn't even heard of it so would be an extra expense at this stage - one which I would have considered if it hadn't been for the 15 to 20k hit I got on the the foundations

 

staircase open as I want it to be.  there will be a door ato my bedroom at the top which can b left open or not as required the rest will be open

 

[Hecateh]

26 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

We have resin on GF (on a suspended timber floor) and it feels really, really nice underfoot with (or without) UFH - a warm and slightly squashy floor. Bathrooms are tile with UFH. 

 

Rest of upper house is engineered wood and no UFH under that but still feels warm under foot. Basement (insulated concrete slab, no UFH) is Karndean, cooler than wood but still not cold.

 

Rugs here and there break up the wood but I really went off carpet after our last new build house and two small kids. Carpets were wool and decent quality - we got a professional cleaner in a few times and DIY annually the rest and the practically black water that we were disposing of was disgusting - goes to show how much dirt and dust embeds itself in, despite very regular hoovering. 

 

With hard surfaces throughout I find the hoover out more often as dirt, dust & pet hair are more obvious but equally the floors are clean and a decent multi surface steam mop brings them back to new once a week, removing anything the hoover missed.

The resin sounds good - am having a bound resin drive so could easily work with this

 

thinking maybe engineered wood would be good upstairs - no heat but not cold though like the idea of ensuite/dressing being warm floor

agree with you about carpet.  Have always loved it but UFH really makes me think again

[Hecateh]

12 minutes ago, Lesgrandepotato said:

UFH everywhere! It’s glorious 

That was my initial idea and certainly have not ruled it out

[Onoff]

Midway through my bathroom build I had to temporarily divert the single pipe 3/4" nominal bore copper system that feeds my downstairs CH. The diversion is in 22mm plastic The room it runs across where the stairs are has no heating but this creates a lovely warm line across the floor!

 

 

[Hecateh]

39 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Midway through my bathroom build I had to temporarily divert the single pipe 3/4" nominal bore copper system that feeds my downstairs CH. The diversion is in 22mm plastic The room it runs across where the stairs are has no heating but this creates a lovely warm line across the floor!

 

I think that warm underfoot feel is today's equivalent of standing with back to the fire and feeling the warmth percolate 

 

[Ferdinand]

4 hours ago, Hecateh said:

Would have had it if I had known about it earlier but my builder hasn't even heard of it so would be an extra expense at this stage - one which I would have considered if it hadn't been for the 15 to 20k hit I got on the the foundations

 

staircase open as I want it to be.  there will be a door ato my bedroom at the top which can b left open or not as required the rest will be open

 

 

Keep in mind that there are thin wet ufh systems that will sit on top of the slab or suspended floor in addition to in-slab systems, as shallow as 18mm, and that they can be not much more cost than rads. Just flagging up the option. Obvs depends on slab build up and floor finish.

 

There has been a recent post or two about a system by Wunda from eg @PeterW.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Nickfromwales
Wanda to Wunda ?

[Nickfromwales]

Ok. If your having solar pv then you need to decide now. If your not, then I'd say a combi. If you are then I'd say system boiler and an UVC, as the hot tank will give you somewhere to store excess pv as hot water. 

Your DHW consumption is likely to better suit a combi however, and there are some very good ones out there these days ?

I think I'd put UFH on both floors TBH, with room stats in each space for the ground / sleeping quarters, and a single room stat for overall control upstairs. I'd also fit two manifolds, one up and one down, so you can choose the flow temps accordingly to get the maximum comfort levels. It's a little complex compared to just radiators but not exactly OTT ( if your staying until your wings flap you out of there.  ). 

Only downfall with UFH off a gas boiler is it won't like running uber low temp / flow, eg when the house is nigh on up to temp and idling there, so a buffer tank may be needed so you can guarantee the boiler stays in the realm of ideal condensing flow temperatures ( for maximised efficiency). 

Fyi, both manifolds can go upstairs in a single location and pipes can drop down, but can't go downstairs and run up realistically, unless you vent each upstairs UFH loop with air vents which need to be inspected / maintained. 

 

As @ProDave says, forget electric showers. Yuk. ?  

[Bitpipe]

10 hours ago, Hecateh said:

The resin sounds good - am having a bound resin drive so could easily work with this

 

thinking maybe engineered wood would be good upstairs - no heat but not cold though like the idea of ensuite/dressing being warm floor

agree with you about carpet.  Have always loved it but UFH really makes me think again

 

They are two very different systems.

 

The internal flooring system is a 2-3mm sub layer of resin (ours is a Sika comfort floor system, laid on a 4mm rubber crumb mat) and then a top coat (the colour) is painted on with a very thin layer of very hard wearing topcoat. This is the bit that can be refreshed if you want a colour change in the future. Initially shiny, it quickly wears to a matt finish and is extremely robust.

 

Works out at around £100/2 which is not far off a high end floor tile plus labour. Aside from the aesthetic of a solid colour throughout, the other advantage is a continuous surface that has no joins or grout lines etc so it stays quite clean. Ours covers the whole ground floor in every room (kitchen, dining, study, utility, hall & WC).

 

The resin bound driveway (which we're also getting installed next week) is a fine aggregate bound in clear (expensive) or yellow (cheaper) resin on a concrete or tarmac substrate. Our old house had a gravel drive and it drove us crazy as it either got stuck in shoes and ended up scratching the floors in the house or ended up in the road outside. Only downside of the resin bound system is you miss the 'crunch' of approaching visitors but we're having external gates so this is not so much of an issue.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

10 hours ago, Hecateh said:

I think that warm underfoot feel is today's equivalent of standing with back to the fire and feeling the warmth percolate

Most of my life I have had parquet flooring.  I have got used to it.  Means home to me.

But every time I go to a house with a decent carpet, I just love it, I could walk up and down my Aunt's stairs all day and fall asleep on her landing.

 

I don't know if any research has been done about falling onto an uncarpeted floor.  It was a fall that set the catastrophic chain of events that led to the death of my Grandmother and to the NHS having to admit they had superbugs (she was one of the 12 that never got compensated, but we had to do the legal work).

The previous owner of this house fell and was unable to get up, leading to his death (and a wee weed floor upstairs).

I don't know if a decent carpet would offer enough protection in a fall compared to a solid, or thin carpeted floor.

Something worth thinking about though.

[Hecateh]

7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Most of my life I have had parquet flooring.  I have got used to it.  Means home to me.

But every time I go to a house with a decent carpet, I just love it, I could walk up and down my Aunt's stairs all day and fall asleep on her landing.

 

I don't know if any research has been done about falling onto an uncarpeted floor.  It was a fall that set the catastrophic chain of events that led to the death of my Grandmother and to the NHS having to admit they had superbugs (she was one of the 12 that never got compensated, but we had to do the legal work).

The previous owner of this house fell and was unable to get up, leading to his death (and a wee weed floor upstairs).

I don't know if a decent carpet would offer enough protection in a fall compared to a solid, or thin carpeted floor.

Something worth thinking about though.

I've always stuck with carpet - even during the 'laminate' years, the only thing that is persuading me off it is ufh. I've had electric ufh fitted in my bathroom and I absolutely love it.  I think flooring is definitely a factor in the damage done by falls though.  Even the choice of hard flooring will make a difference.  Maybe I'll put crash mats at the bottom of stairs .  There will definitely be a soft thick rug my the side of my bed

 

[SteamyTea]

Laminate floors were best avoided anyway.

 

Do you dislike traditional radiators?  I do, and where they are located, usually under a window.

And do you have gas?

One thing to remember is that space heating and DHW do different things, at different times and at different temperatures.  They are not good bedfellows really.

Another thing to remember is that any unvented cylinder needs a certified installation and is meant to have an annual check (often not mentioned by gas fitters/plumbers).

There is also a shift in primary energy sources, we are moving from thermal generation to renewables, and at a faster pace that even I imagined just 5 years ago.

At the moment, gas is so much cheaper than electricity, even allowing for the efficiency losses and extra meter rental that, financially, it is the best option.  I am not sure if this will always be the case though.  You just have to do the sums and work out what is the best overall and maybe build in some future contingency i.e. can you easily swap out a gas boiler for a heat pump (the newer CO₂ ones can produce a higher temperature).

Also, how are you zoning the heating system? could you design it so that unused bedrooms can be at a lower temperature, that can save a bit of energy.

 

[joe90]

Well we are having wet UFH downstairs ( run by ASHP as we don’t have Gas) with tiles and engineered wood flooring throughout ( we will have a dog(s)) but carpet all upstairs with no heating except for our en suite with electric UFH and vinyl floor with a heated towel radiator. As a backup I plan to have slim electric radiators in the bedrooms for exceptionally cold weather. We are going to have a no shoes policy throughout the house as this will keep dirt to a minimum. ( my daughter in law is Spanish and she does not understand why people in England wear their shoes indoors).

[Hecateh]

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Do you dislike traditional radiators?  I do, and where they are located, usually under a window.

Hate them - not all mine are under windows but all are in the way - it's another reason for going for UFH

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

And do you have gas?

It will be relatively easy to get gas to new property - but this is the question at the moment - whether it is worth the expense of getting it or stick with electricity.  I think it's worth it but  ??

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

One thing to remember is that space heating and DHW do different things, at different times and at different temperatures.  They are not good bedfellows really.

Another thing to remember is that any unvented cylinder needs a certified installation and is meant to have an annual check (often not mentioned by gas fitters/plumbers).

I understand there are combi boilers that are suitable for UFH, - 'unvented cylinder' not sure what this is or if I would have one

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

There is also a shift in primary energy sources, we are moving from thermal generation to renewables, and at a faster pace that even I imagined just 5 years ago.

At the moment, gas is so much cheaper than electricity, even allowing for the efficiency losses and extra meter rental that, financially, it is the best option.  I am not sure if this will always be the case though.  You just have to do the sums and work out what is the best overall and maybe build in some future contingency i.e. can you easily swap out a gas boiler for a heat pump (the newer CO₂ ones can produce a higher temperature).

this was something I was thinking about but not sure about - as you say things are changing quickly and I'm not convinced there is not going to be a lot more change meaning surrent new technology has a short shelf life so to speak.  

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Also, how are you zoning the heating system? could you design it so that unused bedrooms can be at a lower temperature, that can save a bit of energy.

 

 

Definitely zoning it - downstairs one zone, mid floor one zone and upstairs possibly two as I want bedroom cool and dressing room bathroom etc warm

[Hecateh]

10 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Well we are having wet UFH downstairs ( run by ASHP as we don’t have Gas) with tiles and engineered wood flooring throughout ( we will have a dog(s)) but carpet all upstairs with no heating except for our en suite with electric UFH and vinyl floor with a heated towel radiator. As a backup I plan to have slim electric radiators in the bedrooms for exceptionally cold weather. We are going to have a no shoes policy throughout the house as this will keep dirt to a minimum. ( my daughter in law is Spanish and she does not understand why people in England wear their shoes indoors).

Is ASHP expensive to install?

What are you doing for DHW? 

[joe90]

I bought my ASHP from Ebay for £380 ( should be £4K) and with the help of a neighbour ( plumber) will be installing it myself so I don’t know the real world cost!. The ASHP will also heat DHW ( with immersion top up) into a pressurised DHW tank ( very well insulated) . Some people on here have gone with a sunamp (instead of a cylinder) which has very low losses but others have discovered that if the DHW temp is kept low ( about 42 degrees) the losses are a lot less so that is why I went that route. I have to say if we had access to mains Gas I would have had a combi. ( one of the joys of living in the wilds ?)