M&E

[LadyBuilder]

Hi,

 

not sure where to post this, so please move or let me know if wrong

 

I am looking for someone to do the M&E design and I am getting quotes of £6k upwards, which seems extremely expensive. Can anyone recommend/suggest anyone reasonable?

 

Thank in advance!

[Onoff]

£6K sounds reasonable to me.

[Russell griffiths]

Looking at the size of your place I would expect at least that. 

Another job for @Nickfromwales

 

[Onoff]

8 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Looking at the size of your place I would expect at least that. 

Another job for @Nickfromwales

 

 

Bargain was the word I meant to use.

[ToughButterCup]

So come on, what does M+E design mean?

[Ferdinand]

2 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

So come on, what does M+E design mean?

 

Does SPONS have a per sqm number for M&E Design?

 

@LadyBuilder Good to ask the question, but I think your number may be OK - depending on the scope.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Construction Channel]

15 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

So come on, what does M+E design mean?

https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/M&E

 

M&E' in construction refers to mechanical and electrical systems.

 

I didnt know either  

[Alexphd1]

6k for designing a mechanical and electrical system????? 

[LadyBuilder]

Ok, the place is big but that is essentially bigger rooms rather than millions of actual rooms...

 

I might be just overconfident, but I reckon I can do myself... just seems like tedious, rather than complicated work

[ragg987]

I suspect most people here have done their own design, or used the tradesman to do so. In my case I did not pay for this piece, though architects details did cover locations of some items e.g. bathroom and kitchen.

 

electrical 1F (first fix) - electrician designed it with my input e.g. location of stuff (oven, router, ASHP etc) and switches

electrical 2F (second fix) - I selected the lighting and other equipment

(electrical included mains as well as alarm, ethernet, telephone cabling)

UFH, ASHP, DHW, stats - designed by combination of me and equipment supplier

plumbing 1F - designd by plumber with my input

plumbing 2F - I detailed the layouts, taps, sanitary etc

alarm - I designed and commissioned, electrician did 1F detailing

MVHR - designed by supplier, builder did the detail dicting runs as they went along

 

What have i missed?

 

I don't consider it to be difficult but it does require attention to detail - e.g. you have to think about all cable runs you will need and make sure they are planned in before you board it up. This means thinking about all switches, lights, PIRs, doorbell, ethernet (inc location on Node 0), thermostats, telephone points, aerial, satellite, alarm panels and detectors. Many hours of work here.

[LadyBuilder]

Hmmm, may be I expect too little hence it seems too expensive

 

I thought they just would to spec the electrical wiring and the plumbing routes. I'm pretty much done designing the basement drainage...

Edited December 18, 2017 by LadyBuilder

[Alexphd1]

I think ragg987 sums it up pretty spot on and i fail to see why I would sub out the design of the M&E to seperate company other than who's doing the install. 

[Nickfromwales]

18 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

I think ragg987 sums it up pretty spot on and i fail to see why I would sub out the design of the M&E to seperate company other than who's doing the install. 

I guess it's more about coordination than complexity. 

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

I guess it's more about coordination than complexity. 

+1 it is after all just a house not an oil refinery!

[Nickfromwales]

When I worked on the ships we had site meetings with the shipyard ( primary client ) every Tuesday and Thursday, and meetings with all the other trades / contractors / ship owners every Monday, Wednesday and Friday on board. That meant all the trades and all the various disciplines were brought together repeatedly to make sure nobody was taking scaffold down that needed to be left up, that cabins were being stripped ready for hot works etc and so on, and it worked extremely well. 

'Line outs' were an essential part of daily life where multiple disciplines in one space all literally drew on the bulkhead what was going where and how big it was, and the most bulky / difficult / crucial systems were given priority over say cables which could be run pretty much any way. 

One example in a domestic build would be getting the soils and wastes in first, priority 1, the mvhr in next as priority 2, plumbing as 3, electrics as 4 and so on....

The problem is that most trades are in it to win it so will take the easiest route and not give two ?'s about others to come behind them. Then the blame game starts as the ones to suffer start charging to divert / re-run stuff at additinal cost to the client. 

That's when paying someone who can highlight, foresee and avoid these costly clashes, ( time as much as money ), has easily justifiable value. 

The benefits of such a service is further reinforced if the client is less knowledgable/ less hands on, so each case has differing levels of merit. 

[ToughButterCup]

14 hours ago, ragg987 said:

I suspect most people here have done their own design, or used the tradesman to do so.

[...]

. Many hours of work here.

 

Thank you @ragg987. 

10 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

[...]

The benefits of such a service is further reinforced if the client is less knowledgable/ less hands on, 

 

May I let you into a secret? I am having to replace '... Less knowledgeable...' with 90 percent  '...hands on...'  and '...Many hours of work here...' 

 

I don't think I have ever worked so hard in such a sustained way in a discipline in which I have no expertise and consequently rely on the collective good will knowledge and supportive critique of all here. Even those who themselves ask for advice teach me, support me because I have to think very carefully before giving advice.

 

Off to do some M+E design, and maybe think about  bragging about it in the pub tonight. Just before I do, which bits of the design are 'mechanical' ?  Door sliders? Hinges? 

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

Off to do some M+E design, and maybe think about  bragging about it in the pub tonight.    Just before I do, which bits of the design are 'mechanical' ?  Door sliders? Hinges? 

 

Mechanical - plumbing, air handling, gas

Electrical - alarms, sensors, usual sparky stuff, structured cabling 

 

Does that help ..? 

[Nickfromwales]

17 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

which bits of the design are 'mechanical' ?

 

14 hours ago, Construction Channel said:

M&E' in construction refers to mechanical and electrical systems.

??

[ProDave]

From my perspective, usually the "electrical design" was done by the architect in so far as every switch, light and socket is shown and oven and hob positions etc.

 

The reality is I rarely follow that. I spend an hour or so walking round with the client, and a big black marker pen, discussing where to put switches, sockets lights etc.

 

Invariably since the plans were drawn, a door or 2 has reversed it's swing, the kitchen layout has changed and the architect never got the sockets where they were wanted in the first place.

 

If you are going to "pre design" this sort f thing, then you must pre design EVERYTHING that includes the kitchen in detail and all bathrooms in detail, and then not deviate from that detail design.

 

I can see the merit in pre design if you are giving a builder a turn key package to build you a house ready to move into. But most self builders are more hands on and involved and like to tweak things as they go along.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

FWIW, I did layout drawings for both floors for the drain runs (they are the immovable things, usually) the ventilation duct runs (the next biggest items) and the hot and cold plumbing runs.  I didn't do wiring run drawings, but did produce drawings showing the location of every outlet and switch, plus the consumer unit etc.

 

All told I would guess I spent around 20 hours doing drawings, and left the wiring runs to be sorted by the electrician.  This was for a house that's a lot smaller, 130m².

 

The problems get more complex as the house size increases, particularly where there may be "pinch points" where several services have to run close to each other.  £6k sounds a bit on the high side, but then you're in an expensive area plus it's a big house, and both of those factors would tend to push the price up.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

 

Mechanical - plumbing, air handling, gas

[...]

 

Not intuitive is it? I mean does @Nickfromwales call himself a mechanic?

[ToughButterCup]

24 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

FWIW, I did layout drawings for both floors for the drain runs (they are the immovable things, usually) the ventilation duct runs (the next biggest items) and the hot and cold plumbing runs.  I didn't do wiring run drawings, but did produce drawings showing the location of every outlet and switch, plus the consumer unit etc.

[...]

 

Right now we're getting somewhere.

What really interests me now is - how do you go about thinking it through? How do (did) you make sure you didn't miss something? Miss something in terms of content and process.  This M+E stuff is really interesting 

 

Its a bit like that stupid question (....stupid until you start thinking about it) - How do you know what you think until you hear what you say? Adapted to this discipline,

'... How do we know what we need until we have described what and how we are going to use the house for - and with whom ...'

 

The best method I can think of is to apply 'Use cases', or perhaps better put,  Informal Use Cases (using software development processes to decide how a house is to be M+Ed is a bit strong maybe).

 

Once those Use cases are described, then perhaps we stand a chance of getting it nearly right.

What worries me is @ProDave's post above  

 

48 minutes ago, ProDave said:

[...]

If you are going to "pre design" this sort of thing, then you must pre design EVERYTHING that includes the kitchen in detail and all bathrooms in detail, and then not deviate from that detail design.

[...]

 

If, like me, you send your wife out to work to keep yourself in the luxury to which she has made me accustomed, the detailed thought processes and hence design decisions are not easy to communicate.

I know making it up as we go along is OK(ish), but as the First Fit thread showed, tight, careful planning is the way to a happy, continuing marriage.

 

How did / are you trying to reduce the stress of a poor  M+E design process  (not outcome)?  Use cases? Standardized approach? Software? Intuition? Experience?

 

(There ya go, sounding like I know what I'm on about already)

[LadyBuilder]

Well, my biggest problem in handing over the money is that I believe I can do a lot of it myself, plus I KNOW that I will change things later.

 

On the other hand, I deal with builders all day long and I know the importance of having something in black and white (and red). Always easier to have drawings and details.

 

And as @recoveringacademic says, what if I am forgetting things or not doing them optimally simply because I am doing it, instead of a professional. What if there is a cheaper/better/smarter way of doing things and only if somebody had told me I would have done it their way...

[ragg987]

3 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

29 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

What really interests me now is - how do you go about thinking it through? How do (did) you make sure you didn't miss something? Miss something in terms of content and process. 

@ProDave's post above 

The way I did it was to start with outcomes. To give you an example of a bathroom (fairly obvious, but baby steps must...)

 

Outcomes 1: water

Location of bath, shower, sink, toilet >> initial layout of drains and water pipes, 1F.

Type of taps and sanitaryware >> improves 1F e.g. because you want taps that are embedded in the wall and not on the sink.

Communicate this to your plumber (in my case he marked positions and we went through it together and I had a big delivery from Megabad prior to 1F so they could rifle through the equipment)

 

Outcomes 2: electrical

What is needed, switches, towel rads, electric shower (please, no!), heated loo seat with a bum shower, etc >> initial location of wiring, 1F.

Type of equipment >> improves 1F e.g. height of towel rad

Additional stuff  to think about, again based on outcomes

"i want the lights to come on automatically" >> need to locate a PIR >> 1F wiring

"I need a humidity sensor for MVHR" >>  1F wiring

"I need a wall mirror with backlighting or demisting >> 1F wiring

"I need a telephone by the toilet" >> 1F wiring

Communicate these to your electrician (we marked switches, sockets and other things by a walk around)

 

Outcomes 3: function based

e.g. MVHR or ASHP, these need to be designed based on function and will have impact to both M & E.

 

So not difficult, but you do need to go through it methodically. I do not know how to plumb or wire (nor do I care in reality, other than being able to wire a plug) but I knew what we wanted and communicating this was the key. And avoid too many changes.

 

3 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

3 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

Thank you @ragg987.

 

You're welcome

Who ever said doing a self-build was going to be easy!

[Ferdinand]

@Ragg87 has a good approach.

 

I, coming from an engineering word, would call that a "Requirements Specification", and would have in my head various principles as well. For my renovation I have things like:

• Sufficient outside lights.
• At least 4 double sockets per room. More in the kitchen. (Policy: enough sockets such that extension leads are never necessary, even in 20 years time).
• Fire alarms as required by law.
• PIV / HR fan, to ventilate and as belt-and-braces for condensation.
• Future proofing stuff eg termnanted wiring runs that just need 2nd fit..

And I had a ready-laid template as it was a renovation, but we completely rewired.

 

Then there were user requirements, some for maintenance and from experience, and some to make the house liveable, such as:

• Ability to live as a 2 or 3 bed bungalow.
• Ability to use the front room or a bedroom at the back into the lounge /study - both would need a media corner ==> more sockets in that spot. 
• Ability to run in Satellite, Cable etc, without the b*ggers drilling random holes in my nice bungalow.
• 3 or ideally 4 appliance slots, one or ideally two to be tall, with power, and at least under-worktop ones two with plumbing. (History teaches me that we are better off without combined appliances, which means ability to handle washer, dryer and dishwasher).

And so on...

 

On a tiny bungalow I could busk and adjust quite a lot of it.

 

Adding it up, my sockets are just about 1 per sqm of floorspace - 62 in a 64 sqm bungalow. Aha - plus 2 outside = 64.

 

F

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ferdinand