Sacking Architects

[Ministar11]

The architects have made mistakes throughout the build including incorrect drawings, inexperience of the practical requirements of building a property and escalating costs.  For example, of their behaviour they charged us for handover to another architect when our architect when on paternity leave.  The relationship has deteriorated and we are want to sack them and proceed without them instead relying on the buildings and structural engineer but I am concerned if this might impact on us getting a mortgage.

 

We will need to get the building to the stage where we can get a mortgage and release money in the property to complete the build.  Although the architects issue a "Practical Completion Certificate" under the JCT contract my investigations seem to suggest mortgage providers will require a Professional Consultants Certificate also known as an architect's certificate that comes with a 6/10 year warranty and we can get this from a independent company and it is not the contract under the JCT contract that they require.  Obviously we'll need to also get BC certificate etc. 

 

Does anyone know / have experience of sacking architects and the impact this might have i.e. not having a "Practical Completion Certificate" under the JCT contract?

[joe90]

Technically I had no architect but I did pay one to convert my drawings on paper to CAD and file our application but he got the drawings wrong three times and he only had mine to follow. You don’t need an architect to get a mortgage just the sign off from the planners;BCO.

[Ministar11]

Thanks @joe90

We've started to question their invoices and they are now threatening us and trying to scare us by saying they will not issue the Practical Completion Certificate under the JCT contract but BC is completely separate and we will get the Completion Statement from BC.  We also plan to pay for a Professional Completion Certificate from a third party company.  The more I look into this the more I realise that the certificate issued by the architects under the JCT is worthless/ meaningless but wanted to get advice because of their scaremongering.

[joe90]

The only issue I came across was if you sell within 10 years a mortgage company needs a sign off separate to BC (Forgot the name) and because I had to sell mine within the 10 years I got a ticket from a third party company for less than an architects fee.

[ETC]

1. Are they architects?

2. Do you have a contract with them?

3. If you do - what does it say about issues you are experiencing?

4. If you don’t - they are probably in violation of several codes of conduct.

5. Check with your mortgage company - a JCT Completion Certificate may be irrelevant - a BC Completion Certificate is more likely to hold more weight.

6. If they are ARB and RIBA members and you are not happy with the service make a complaint.

7. If your mortgage company require some sort of guarantee speak to the NHBC.

[Thorfun]

7 minutes ago, ETC said:

If your mortgage company require some sort of guarantee speak to the NHBC.

when i was looking for warranty providers NHBC no longer dealt with single self-builders so had to look elsewhere.

[nod]

As above 

But also note that an Architects certificate isn’t accepted by some lenders HSBC being one 

 

[Mr Punter]

Because this is a renovation and extension you will not need a new build structural warranty or professional consultant certificate.  You will need a completion certificate from Building Control.  If you need funds, apply for the renovation mortgage now as it will take time to get finalised.  Even the property as it stands has some value.  You mortgage lender will want to know how much the project will cost to complete and may ask for further figures and information.

[Nickfromwales]

25 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Because this is a renovation and extension you will not need a new build structural warranty or professional consultant certificate.  You will need a completion certificate from Building Control.  If you need funds, apply for the renovation mortgage now as it will take time to get finalised.  Even the property as it stands has some value.  You mortgage lender will want to know how much the project will cost to complete and may ask for further figures and information.

+1. Maybe get a rudimentary bill of quantities done, to show the lender that you have your side in check eg that you know the actual costs required to get to a completion certificate.

All you need here is the BCO’s sign off, architects are being dicks.

[saveasteading]

If you haven't already, tell them in writing that  they are suspended and you will make no payment while you enquire about how to proceed.

That will include mortgage advisor, bco, the ARB, and a construction lawyer.

If that doesn't get a compromise or a walkaway,  I'll be amazed.

 

That is of course if they are ARB registered. What does it say on their blurb?

[Redbeard]

8 hours ago, Ministar11 said:

For example, of their behaviour they charged us for handover to another architect when our architect when on paternity leave.

 

Sorry to hear of your problems. How about phoning or writing to RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects) and ARB (Architects' Registration Board), explaining the paternity leave matter and ask them if that is normal behaviour. What explanation was given to you for the charge? Presumably that hours were taken in effecting the transfer of work, but if your contract is for provision of a service then it should not matter who does it, and if they have to faff around behind the scenes because of personnel issues that should surely not be a problem you should have to *pay*' for...?

[Nickfromwales]

Yup, they would have known about the paternity stuff roughly 9 months in advance...?  

[Gus Potter]

On 11/11/2024 at 09:04, Ministar11 said:

The relationship has deteriorated and we are want to sack them and proceed without them instead relying on the buildings and structural engineer but I am concerned if this might impact on us getting a mortgage.

Ok have you sounded this out with the SE and buildings Engineer?

 

They may be as equally frustrated as you are.

 

If they are willing to support you then one of the two can often have a quite word with the Architect on your behalf (you keep it at arms length) along the lines of.. we don't want to make a big thing of this but what about if we certify our bit.. and you do your bit... by way of the Architect's certificate.. otherwise the Client may instruct us to look more closely at your work and delivery.. and we don't really want that to happen as we are all busy!

 

If an agreement is made in principle then any oustanding fee element can often be "made to go away" Your Architect's certificate is often separate from the JCT.. and that will depend on what kind of JCT contract you have entered into.

 

 

[FuerteStu]

I engaged an architect with my renovation. 

 

I seriously regretted it in every way. The drawings I gave him from my own design were virtually the same as the ones that were finally approved by planning. After his three stages and ignoring what planning recommended. 

 

(his structural engineer quoted 9k for drawings) 

 

He threatened additional fees if I no longer used him, I engaged a separate structural engineer through a family friend who looked at the drawings and said they were impossible to construct. 

 

He recommended someone else he knew to adapt my drawings. 

 

*IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE* 

And that of many others, most architects are nothing more than money grabbing conceptual designers.. Artistic types who have very little connection or sympathy to construction or planning. 

 

If you get a gut feeling your architect is wrong.. Get a second opinion. 

Edited November 17 by FuerteStu

[ETC]

23 hours ago, FuerteStu said:

I engaged an architect with my renovation. 

 

I seriously regretted it in every way. The drawings I gave him from my own design were virtually the same as the ones that were finally approved by planning. After his three stages and ignoring what planning recommended. 

 

(his structural engineer quoted 9k for drawings) 

 

He threatened additional fees if I no longer used him, I engaged a separate structural engineer through a family friend who looked at the drawings and said they were impossible to construct. 

 

He recommended someone else he knew to adapt my drawings. 

 

*IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE* 

And that of many others, most architects are nothing more than money grabbing conceptual designers.. Artistic types who have very little connection or sympathy to construction or planning. 

 

If you get a gut feeling your architect is wrong.. Get a second opinion. 

Can you post your drawings that your se said were impostor build?

[FuerteStu]

7 minutes ago, ETC said:

Can you post your drawings that your se said were impostor build?

He'd spanned 6.5m with 225x45 joists for upstairs, with a "possible steel needed" in the middle, but his drawing showed the steel on an internal wall that wasn't structural. 

 

 

[joe90]

On 17/11/2024 at 22:04, FuerteStu said:

conceptual designers.. Artistic types who have very little connection or sympathy to construction or planning. 

I too have come across similar, I am sure they are not all like that but quite a few. 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, FuerteStu said:

his drawing showed the steel on an internal wall that wasn't structural. 

We all make mistakes. some sympathy required.

But we are liable for them. 

Would it have changed the final cost if it had been designed properly in the first place? If so, then there should be some recompense.

[G and J]

I wonder if part of the issue is the lack of a feedback loop. 
 

I have the impression that on lots of projects, the architect does the getting through planning and maybe building regs submission, then they focus on the next project.  
 

Where, in general, do they get their homework marked in the light of building what they’ve designed?

 

And if they aren’t getting that feedback how can they be expected to either improve or even keep up with rapid product and technology developments?

[FuerteStu]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

We all make mistakes. some sympathy required.

But we are liable for them. 

Would it have changed the final cost if it had been designed properly in the first place? If so, then there should be some recompense.

 

Over a years delay due to his oversight and refusal to listen to the planning officer. 

When planning said no the first time, (due to his dormer flat roof design being higher than the ridge) he came back with a ludicrous design that was close to a Dutch barn roof that was also refused, he then drew designs for a standard pitched roof on top of the loft conversion so the end had two gables.. 

I refused to let him submit those to planning and gave him my interpretation of external after a conversation with planning officer. Which was finally accepted. 

 

It was then we discovered just how impractical his original drawings were, and the ones thereafter. There were many issues. The whole project was nearly abandoned. 

 

Finally found a good SE and a Posi-joists company who managed to make it work. But by then the post-covid building material costs had doubled. 

[FuerteStu]

6 hours ago, G and J said:

I wonder if part of the issue is the lack of a feedback loop. 

 

Feedback is irrelevant if it falls on deaf ears. 

Both the planning officer and myself talked to him about the refused application and he still came back with absurd designs rather than listening... 

[MikeSharp01]

2 minutes ago, FuerteStu said:

Both the planning officer and myself talked to him about the refused application and he still came back with absurd designs rather than listenin

Sounds like you got a bad one there. There must be some RIBA code that protects clients from tin eared architects. Ours was great listened to everything while sticking to their concept yet making changed to suit us and the planners pre planning advice. Worked out well and we are happy with the work they did. We didn't use them to manage the project but not because we thought they couldn't because we wanted to do it ourselves. 

[saveasteading]

6 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

There must be some RIBA code that protects clients from tin eared architects.

People vary. Architects are taught self confidence and boldness. Some courses include very practical design while others are all about vision and concept.

Some are pure artists. Some are interested in construction methods, Some are interested in construction detail and even cost.

Make sure to get the right type, and also interrogate on their attitude and experience.

I interviewed a recent graduate once and expected to see some working drawings in the cv, but they were all abstract paintings denoting....something or other. 

[Alan Ambrose]

I used to visit the Royal College of Art final year shows (OK full disclosure, I'm an RCA design graduate) and was always very amused at the output of the architecture department. By and large it contained no plans or models for buildings or any other structures but was often concerned with redesigning social structures and systems e.g.

 

Architecture PhD
‍‍MPhil/PhD

 

Working at the intersection of theory, research, media and critical-spatial-practices, the MPhil/ PhD programme in Architecture supports experimental practice-led and interdisciplinary theses aiming at tangible public and social impact. The programme fosters architectural research at the intersection of history and theory, critical ecologies, new materialism, and digital culture. The programme is investigating the diverse ways in which architects, artists, filmmakers, curators and other cultural producers have negotiated crises associated with globalization, migration and statelessness, the hauntings of empire and the colonial present, new digital technologies, and the growing biopolitical conflicts around ecology and climate change. We strongly encourage to think about the performativity of space, or architectural forms and practices in their interrelation to the climate crisis, social movements and institutional change.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

We strongly encourage to think about the performativity of space

Ahh yes. That.

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

the intersection of history and theory

And that.

 

So like my morning in the cold rain,   squidging through mud and trying to divert runoff.