Drainage Field Location Survey

[flanagaj]

Nothing is simple 😞

 

The plot of land we are buying has one outstanding enquiry before we can exchange.  The vendor cannot tell us the location of their drainage field, as they say they don't know.  Our concern is that it sits on the plot that we are buying, or sits on their land but right by the boundary and will therefore be closer than the current regulation of 15m away from any building.  I've got a horrible feeling that it's going to put a spanner in the works.

 

I am going to pay to have the survey done on their drains as I don't think the vendor will do it.  If I have to pay £500 so as to save a £350k mistake, then it's money well spent.

 

Does anyone know whether a standard CCTV drainage survey will provide a drainage field map, or whether I need to use a different specialist?

[Jilly]

I might be missing something, but why would there be one before the house is built?
 

Unless it’s a demolish and rebuild? Or is it a brownfield site? 
 

Or does it have planning permission and digging has been started? 

[Gus Potter]

5 hours ago, flanagaj said:

Nothing is simple 😞

 

The plot of land we are buying has one outstanding enquiry before we can exchange.  The vendor cannot tell us the location of their drainage field, as they say they don't know.  Our concern is that it sits on the plot that we are buying, or sits on their land but right by the boundary and will therefore be closer than the current regulation of 15m away from any building.  I've got a horrible feeling that it's going to put a spanner in the works.

 

I am going to pay to have the survey done on their drains as I don't think the vendor will do it.  If I have to pay £500 so as to save a £350k mistake, then it's money well spent.

 

Does anyone know whether a standard CCTV drainage survey will provide a drainage field map, or whether I need to use a different specialist?

You must get to the bottom of this before parting with your cash.  I see this a lot.. the vendor claims no knowledge.. but I know they know that they are not offering a clean sale. Ask this.. are you the first punter that has pitched up or have there been others who have clocked that the vendor is not playing the game? I have seen this over the last 40 years.. If you can't get a rural plot soakaway or similar to work etc then the plot is often only worth the agricultural value.. it's a fact folks and there is usually no magic bullet.

 

It may be that the plot is worthless.. you don't want to be the idiot that buys it. It may be that you can do a deal where they give up more of their land and you share the soakaway say, now the plot has value. 

 

It's time to say to them.. look we need to sort this out or we are off. If you are not firm now you could lose your shirt.  Forget CCTV survey for now and get the big stuff sorted. Who owns what and what rights of servitude exist. Understand that first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kelvin]

Listen to Gus. 
 

When we were buying our rural plot there were no services on-site or nearby other than electricity. The vendor had vague notes in the sales particulars about water could be provided via a borehole on the plot or ‘nearby’ same with sewerage (treatment plant and soakaway) I made it a condition of the sale that they had to find a plentiful supply of potable water ‘on the plot’ and carry out a land survey to ensure the ground was suitable for a soakaway located within the regulations although, in the end, I carried out the land survey. The plot was worthless without these services easily (cost effectively) being available. 

Edited April 10 by Kelvin

[flanagaj]

8 hours ago, Jilly said:

I might be missing something, but why would there be one before the house is built?
 

Unless it’s a demolish and rebuild? Or is it a brownfield site? 
 

Or does it have planning permission and digging has been started? 

I should have been more clear.  They have split their large garden into two and got planning approval for a new dwelling at the side of their current house.

[flanagaj]

5 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

You must get to the bottom of this before parting with your cash.  I see this a lot.. the vendor claims no knowledge.. but I know they know that they are not offering a clean sale. Ask this.. are you the first punter that has pitched up or have there been others who have clocked that the vendor is not playing the game? I have seen this over the last 40 years.. If you can't get a rural plot soakaway or similar to work etc then the plot is often only worth the agricultural value.. it's a fact folks and there is usually no magic bullet.

 

It may be that the plot is worthless.. you don't want to be the idiot that buys it. It may be that you can do a deal where they give up more of their land and you share the soakaway say, now the plot has value. 

 

It's time to say to them.. look we need to sort this out or we are off. If you are not firm now you could lose your shirt.  Forget CCTV survey for now and get the big stuff sorted. Who owns what and what rights of servitude exist. Understand that first.

 

Thanks Gus.  It is all a bit strange.   Although planning will approve a new house and building control will apply the regs when you install a new sewage treatment plant and drainage field, I do find it strange that there is no check as part of planning to make sure that the new dwelling is not being built right by an existing drainage field.  In the US, I think drainage fields are registered with the local authority so that you can do a search to find out where there are in a given area.   In the UK it seems that there are thousands which are installed and their location is forgotten about.

[Russell griffiths]

I don’t believe any type of survey,will provide the layout of the drainage field. 
what you can find out is the start of it, the second it branches of into a herringbone pattern then I think you will have problems with the camera. 
 

you will be able to plot the tank location and the direction of travel of the pipe, then the beginning of the drainage field. 
 

I would have thought just standing in the garden you would get a reasonable idea where it would be. 
 

but before you spend £300, what would happen if it’s not where you would like it. 
 

if for instance it travels too far into your plot, but would be ok being further back to the boundary, how will this be achieved. 
would the vendors be willing to relocate it closer to the boundary 

is there room to put it in their land. 
could you install a new one and share it. 
 

I think I would ask all these questions, because as soon as you find out it’s not where you want it, it’s game over unless you have a solution already in place. 

[flanagaj]

My initial thought was whether to get a company in to do ground penetrating radar survey to deduce the location.   It is an interesting problem, as the estate agent said to me this morning, "so what would you do if you didn't have the luxury of asking the neighbour where their drainage field is located?"  I see where he is coming from.  Would you simply look at the plot and say "Well, it's under 15m to the immediate neighbours fence, and it's off mains drainage here, so no can do as there could be a drainage field too close to the proposed house"

 

I did speak with a company who said they could do a cctv survey, but he stated that if the system is old, then it might not even have a drainage field, and it might also be clogged up and the camera will not penetrate very far.

[saveasteading]

12 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

t might not even have a drainage field,

If it is old it will have a soakaway, probably a small one filled with rubble and unlined.. If the tank is inefficient then it will clog from time to time.

Either the neighbours know there is a soakaway or drainage field but are choosing not to tell you where, or they don't know. they must at least know where any cess or digester is, and you can asses where that would drain to.

If it is working OK then there isn't really much of a risk, but there is always some.

if it isn't working well, there may be occasional saturation of the ground. Look for longer grass and especially reeds to show where that might be. Look for the same on google earth

 

At the very least you need a clause that says you are not responsible for any damage to their drainage system, and they are responsible for relocating it if found on your land.

Assuming there is none, have you worked out where you would put yours, and most importantly if the ground is appropriate in porosity and area? it may be unviable.

 

[Russell griffiths]

27 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

My initial thought was whether to get a company in to do ground penetrating radar survey to deduce the location.   It is an interesting problem, as the estate agent said to me this morning, "so what would you do if you didn't have the luxury of asking the neighbour where their drainage field is located?"  I see where he is coming from.  Would you simply look at the plot and say "Well, it's under 15m to the immediate neighbours fence, and it's off mains drainage here, so no can do as there could be a drainage field too close to the proposed house"

 

I did speak with a company who said they could do a cctv survey, but he stated that if the system is old, then it might not even have a drainage field, and it might also be clogged up and the camera will not penetrate very far.

Simple, if it’s not in the deeds of your plot that it has to be kept for your neighbours use, then just dig it up and skip it. 
 

this could actually simplify things. I have a property with next doors tank and drainage field at the far end of the garden, it’s in my deeds that it’s there and I have to allow access for maintenance. 
 

so if the bloke selling your plot is playing dum then what’s to stop you digging his up and building a garage on top of it. 
unless it’s stipulated where it is and the need to stay away from it, as in an easement around it, then buy the plot, drive all over it with a big excavator and break it all up, he will soon regret not showing where it was. 

[flanagaj]

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Quote

At the very least you need a clause that says you are not responsible for any damage to their drainage system, and they are responsible for relocating it if found on your land.

That is a good idea and I will ask the Solicitor to put that in writing.

 

Quote

Assuming there is none, have you worked out where you would put yours, and most importantly if the ground is appropriate in porosity and area? it may be unviable.

Our drainage field is not a problem, as we have lots of land to the east of the house which is nowhere near any other buildings ...   I have looked at the regs regarding new drainage fields, and we are ok.

Maybe I am being anal regarding the 15m distance, but as our boundary is 4 metres from the house and our garage will be even closer, I just want to avoid any nasty surprises.

[ProDave]

Probably the simplest way to solve this is get agreement from the vendor to did some test pits.  One close the the boundary and one at each corner of where you expect the house to go.  If none encounter any drainage then fine.

[Jenki]

16 hours ago, flanagaj said:

My initial thought was whether to get a company in to do ground penetrating radar survey to deduce the location. 

I did a large extension job that needed piling, there was a known sewer 6M deep running across the plot, United Utilities would not take the liability for plotting its location.  So the customer organised a camera inspection and location, this was marked out, pile layout was designed around the pipe location........  Build over agreement in place. The piling contractor (thankfully working for the client and not me) piled as per the plan and caught the edge or the 600mm dia pipe @6M deep, thankfully not crushing the pipe but putting a lovely core into the edge of it. 

 

When every man and his dog from United utilities turned up, the area  supervisor said "that pipe follows this line" - pointing down the road, "see that tree 5 houses down, there's an inspection chamber next to it". absolutely nowhere near the marked location. i.e. about 5M out of line.  Camera company said "not our fault, there is a tolerance of error." 

 

Anyway,  the above is a warning to not bet your shirt on this service.

 

 

Edited April 11 by Jenki
typo

[flanagaj]

In a nutshell would people be concerned about having a drainage field / sewage soakaway within 4-5 metres of your house?

 

I am just trying to work out whether we are being too cautious and worrying about nothing.  It's the current regulations of drainage fields having to be a minimum of 15 metres from a dwelling that has got us worried.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, flanagaj said:

In a nutshell would people be concerned about having a drainage field / sewage soakaway within 4-5 metres of your house?

Yes, in a word. If it fails it could effect you house/garden.

[Kelvin]

32 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

In a nutshell would people be concerned about having a drainage field / sewage soakaway within 4-5 metres of your house?

 

I am just trying to work out whether we are being too cautious and worrying about nothing.  It's the current regulations of drainage fields having to be a minimum of 15 metres from a dwelling that has got us worried.

Yes. Drainage fields have a high chance of failing so what then. If it’s a treatment plant into a soakaway then it’s less of a problem as the effluent is mostly clear water but that’s assuming it’s all well maintained but I still wouldn’t want it that close.  
 

As a general point I wouldn’t want someone else’s services like this on my land just like I wouldn’t want mine on someone else’s land. 

[ProDave]

It sounds to me the vendor has not done due dilligence, and what they are selling as a building plot may not in fact be suitable.  That is not something you want to gamble on.

 

If it is a viable plot and you buy it, where will YOUR drainage go to?

 

Assuming there is a solution to that, then the obvious next question is as part of preparing this plot to be suitable to build on and therefore suitable for sale, why is the vendor not first updating their drainage system so it is both up to date and certain they know where it is exactly?

 

This one might get a laugh, but trust me is meant as serious, have you tried divining?  Or know someone that has?

[flanagaj]

Thanks for the replies.  So I've concluded that this purchase is dead in the water.  The only option that is viable, is for them to ask the land owner behind them if they can site a new drainage field for their property under the horse paddock so it's adequate distance away.

 

I have a feeling that they will instead just try and find an unsuspecting buyer who doesn't ask as many questions as we have.

 

In the grand scheme of things, I personally would be happy to spend 15k for said drainage field if I was set to gain 350k from selling part of my garden.

Edited April 11 by flanagaj

[flanagaj]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

It sounds to me the vendor has not done due dilligence, and what they are selling as a building plot may not in fact be suitable.  That is not something you want to gamble on.

 

If it is a viable plot and you buy it, where will YOUR drainage go to?

 

Assuming there is a solution to that, then the obvious next question is as part of preparing this plot to be suitable to build on and therefore suitable for sale, why is the vendor not first updating their drainage system so it is both up to date and certain they know where it is exactly?

 

This one might get a laugh, but trust me is meant as serious, have you tried divining?  Or know someone that has?

You are correct.  They have spent a fortune using expensive planning consultants, but somehow failed to ask themselves the question "but what about our septic tank / drainage field / soakaway that is right up to the boundary"

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

that’s assuming it’s all well maintained

Good point. We don't know anything about any pre-treatment tank, or how this was built, or was it inspected. Most seem to be badly done.

 

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

have you tried divining? 

Doesn't it need running water though? I used to be able to find cables and active sewers, but I don't think I'd find a perforated pipe.

 

1 hour ago, flanagaj said:

expensive planning consultants

Drainage I have found to be completely beyond most planners' comprehension.

 

1 hour ago, flanagaj said:

purchase is dead in the water.

Difficult to walk away from, but it's best not to be your problem. The vendor must get a survey and design done.

[Russell griffiths]

10 hours ago, flanagaj said:

Thanks for the replies.  So I've concluded that this purchase is dead in the water.  The only option that is viable, is for them to ask the land owner behind them if they can site a new drainage field for their property under the horse paddock so it's adequate distance away.

 

I have a feeling that they will instead just try and find an unsuspecting buyer who doesn't ask as many questions as we have.

 

In the grand scheme of things, I personally would be happy to spend 15k for said drainage field if I was set to gain 350k from selling part of my garden.

If you like the plot, then why not be blunt and tell them that, say your willing to go ahead, but will retain £50,000 for them to install a new treatment plant and drainage field. 
or you walk away and start again. 

[flanagaj]

So what if the plot was purchased on the basis that there is no liability should we dig up their drainage field or foul water soakaway pit.  Would that not work in our favour, as the subsequent replacement field that they would have to have installed to replace the one that did actually reside on our land would have to be replaced with one that meets current building regulations.  Eg, 15m from any dwelling.   As that would not be physically possible given the location of the new boundary and new dwelling, would Building Control simply state that a drainage field was not viable, and they could potentially use crates (not sure if space permits) or the last option is that they would have to simply install a cesspit?

My understanding is that if you have to replace an old septic tank or a brick filled foul water soakaway with a new one as yours has failed, then you have to abide by the new General Binding Rules and cannot simply replace with what was there before?

 

 

[ProDave]

On 11/04/2024 at 21:40, flanagaj said:

Thanks for the replies.  So I've concluded that this purchase is dead in the water.  The only option that is viable, is for them to ask the land owner behind them if they can site a new drainage field for their property under the horse paddock so it's adequate distance away.

So basically they have a large garden to accommodate their drainage.  They want to sell a big chunk of that large garden that probably accommodates their drainage field so they will need to pay someone to allow them alternative drainage under a paddock.

 

Their motivation for selling is no doubt a lot of £££  so if I were the paddock owner I would bt asking for quite a lot of ££ to allow that.  It would almost be a ransom situation.

[ProDave]

15 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

So what if the plot was purchased on the basis that there is no liability should we dig up their drainage field or foul water soakaway pit.  Would that not work in our favour, as the subsequent replacement field that they would have to have installed to replace the one that did actually reside on our land would have to be replaced with one that meets current building regulations.  Eg, 15m from any dwelling.   As that would not be physically possible given the location of the new boundary and new dwelling, would Building Control simply state that a drainage field was not viable, and they could potentially use crates (not sure if space permits) or the last option is that they would have to simply install a cesspit?

So you go ahead, buy the plot, start digging for the house and find their drainage field.  You will have to dig all that up which is likely to be a lot of foul ground, dispose of it, and build up and re fill from good ground.

 

And then what?  Just cap off their pipe feeding it?  That will get nasty and messy both physically and legally very quickly.

 

The only way this is ever going to work is alternative drainage for the existing house installed first and you still expecting to find at least some foul ground to remove and replace.

[flanagaj]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

So you go ahead, buy the plot, start digging for the house and find their drainage field.  You will have to dig all that up which is likely to be a lot of foul ground, dispose of it, and build up and re fill from good ground.

 

And then what?  Just cap off their pipe feeding it?  That will get nasty and messy both physically and legally very quickly.

 

The only way this is ever going to work is alternative drainage for the existing house installed first and you still expecting to find at least some foul ground to remove and replace.

Noted.  I'm just ***** off.  This is the second property we have attempted to purchase, and on both occasions, it's has been the off mains drainage that has been caused the problem.