electric boilers are cheaper than heatpumps to run

[dpmiller]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/military-shuns-heat-pumps-favour-153414975.html

 

"An MoD spokesperson said that the project was launched to find a cheaper alternative to heat pumps, which require comprehensive and expensive work to a property before installation.

One possible solution is by using Cylo boilers, which the Telegraph understands are currently being fitted in four homes at the Duke of Gloucester Barracks in South Cerney, Glos, as part of a pilot project due to start early in 2024.

Cylo is a fridge-sized, emission-free electric boiler that is cheaper to run and more effective than a heat pump.

It is also greener than a gas boiler and requires no major works to a building before it can be installed.

The boiler uses a pressurised water tank as a thermal battery, using off-peak and cheap electricity to create a “heat reservoir” that then powers radiators when needed.

Standing around 6ft tall and weighing around 250kg before being filled with water, it can be fitted in a ground floor room or on the outside of a building.!"

 

really?

Edited December 31, 2023 by Ferdinand
Annoying typo in title.

[ProDave]

Re inventing the wheel.  It is an "electric storage boiler"  A thermal store heated by a number of immersion heater elements, typically up to 4 of them for a 12Kw input so on E7 a storage capacity of up to 84kWh.

 

I know several people with them, and none have a good word to say and the conversation always uses the phrase "expensive bills"

 

More effective?  That just means more able to heat very hot water to run small radiators to avoid upgrades, i.e. cheaper install.

 

I can't see how it is cheaper to run than an ASHP.  Unless you can still find an E7 tariff with the off peak rate 1/3 a normal tariff, i.e. about 10p per kWh at the moment.

 

It's just spin from a manufacturer desperate to maintain a market for such a product.

[nod]

It wouldn’t surprise me 

I think even the greenest on here wouldn’t dispute that HPs are more expensive to run than gas 

All three quotes that we have had stated they don’t do retrospective fitting any longer As most people expect there heating bills to plummet 

Lots of mis information out there 

Even BG are selling with The promise your bills will be slashed by a third

Probably in the small print 

[SteamyTea]

Oh dear.

If only people had stayed awake in school science lessons.

What sort of (expletive deleted) approves these installations.

[JohnMo]

The only advantage I see is it will flow high temperatures so suitable for normal sized radiators. But charged on E7 or similar.

 

May as well install storage heaters.

 

4 minutes ago, nod said:

think even the greenest on here wouldn’t dispute that HPs are more expensive to run than gas 

I will dispute. If you have a battery and UFH it's loads cheaper and you can also cool. I'm just using standard E7.  Heating season this year has had a warmer house and a lower bill. Heat pump output much better match for the house heating demand than the gas boiler was.

[Andehh]

Really pisses me off, electric boiler are just a con praying on unsuspecting people!

 

That being said, if people are to stupid to spend 30mins checking online checking electric boiler vs ASHP or even just asking around... Maybe they deserve it??

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, Andehh said:

Really pisses me off, electric boiler are just a con praying on unsuspecting people

Thing is that these are being sold to large organisation i.e. military and councils.

Surely they must have someone that can chase these fraudsters off the premises.

 

I worked for a crook once and he had no problems telling lies to everyone, including us staff, who could see what was going on.

[nod]

44 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

The only advantage I see is it will flow high temperatures so suitable for normal sized radiators. But charged on E7 or similar.

 

May as well install storage heaters.

 

I will dispute. If you have a battery and UFH it's loads cheaper and you can also cool. I'm just using standard E7.  Heating season this year has had a warmer house and a lower bill. Heat pump output much better match for the house heating demand than the gas boiler was.

Hope your right and they are all wrong 

We will soon find out 

Doesn’t the cooling function void your grant 

[saveasteading]

Old Macdonald's Law applies

 

Energy In = Energy Inevitably Out 

[Andehh]

24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Thing is that these are being sold to large organisation i.e. military and councils.

Surely they must have someone that can chase these fraudsters off the premises.

 

I worked for a crook once and he had no problems telling lies to everyone, including us staff, who could see what was going on.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it's a loss leader /funded trial to then use in marketing material as part of the long con.

 

Easiest and cheapest form of marketing, and the civil servant paying the capex but not the opex doesn't give a shit... He now looks like a genius as he upgraded/has a trial signed off for 100% sustainable electric heating for 1/5th price of a hydrogen boiler (lol) or an ASHP.

 

'look Doris, I know your grandson said they don't work.. But look... The UK military is trialing them and they know a thing or two about technology... Trust me....'

Edited December 30, 2023 by Andehh

[JohnMo]

Basics of the maths

 

Heating season SCoP so far is 3.7 for heating including DHW. So around 4p per kWh, compared to 7p to 8p for gas when you factor in efficiency.

 

We batch charge the floor overnight (about 6 hrs) down to an average day temp of about 3 degs and let it run longer on colder days.

 

We generated 9kWh the other day, so that would have been free running for the heat pump - can't get that with gas or oil.

[Iceverge]

Direct electric. Stored in a water tank.

 

Reminds me of something. 

 

 

There is a financial case for this setup over an ASHP but only when your electric demand gets as low as about 2MWh/annum I think. 

[SteamyTea]

38 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

There is a financial case for this setup over an ASHP but only when your electric demand gets as low as about 2MWh/annum I think. 

I looked at this a while back, along with someone else.

We came to the conclusion that the realistic break even point was 3.5 MWh/year.

Not looked at it for a few years now, so the BEP may be a bit lower, but then there has been general inflation.

 

I use between 3 and 4 MWh/year.

[JohnMo]

12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I looked at this a while back, along with someone else.

We came to the conclusion that the realistic break even point was 3.5 MWh/year.

Not looked at it for a few years now, so the BEP may be a bit lower, but then there has been general inflation.

 

I use between 3 and 4 MWh/year.

Really depend on what you buy, how you buy and how you install.  On a new build it's a no brainer.

 

Some old houses (not all) you must be mad or very rich, unless it's a hybrid install. 

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Really depend on what you buy, how you buy and how you install.  On a new build it's a no brainer.

Yes.

A2AHP will change the numbers somewhat as well.

May be worth looking at again.

[TonyT]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

Re inventing the wheel.  It is an "electric storage boiler"  A thermal store heated by a number of immersion heater elements, typically up to 4 of them for a 12Kw input so on E7 a storage capacity of up to 84kWh.

 

I know several people with them, and none have a good word to say and the conversation always uses the phrase "expensive bills"

 

More effective?  That just means more able to heat very hot water to run small radiators to avoid upgrades, i.e. cheaper install.

 

I can't see how it is cheaper to run than an ASHP.  Unless you can still find an E7 tariff with the off peak rate 1/3 a normal tariff, i.e. about 10p per kWh at the moment.

 

It's just spin from a manufacturer desperate to maintain a market for such a product.

I’m getting 7.5p per unit off peak

keeping my storage heaters toasty!

[Roger440]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Basics of the maths

 

Heating season SCoP so far is 3.7 for heating including DHW. So around 4p per kWh, compared to 7p to 8p for gas when you factor in efficiency.

 

We batch charge the floor overnight (about 6 hrs) down to an average day temp of about 3 degs and let it run longer on colder days.

 

We generated 9kWh the other day, so that would have been free running for the heat pump - can't get that with gas or oil.

 

Not this again.

 

You keep , in your posts, ignoring the capital outlay for a full system, batteries ands solar. Of course its cheap to run. But was hardly cheap to buy ? Payback period? Lots is the answer. Fortunate that you can fund it and take the long term view.

 

So yes, i can agree with you, that contrary to nods assertion that gas must be cheaper. But only if looking at half the picture. Otherwise, he is correct.

 

 

[Iceverge]

I wouldn't be surprised if super duper insulation (passive house ++++) and solar PV was the cheapest long term method. 

 

Out heat demand is about 3MWh.  If we knocked about 30m2 off the footprint, assumed the same internal heat gains, used an insulated raft foundation and externally insulated over all the frames of doors and windows, and made some of the windows smaller PHPP would have our annual heat demand at about 1200kWh. Direct electric for space heating and PV for summer water heating would be the cheapest option then. 

 

For reference our house only cost €4k more in added insulation and airtighess products than a bregs build. I didn't price the window difference but a neighbour did and 2G to 3G was €800. 

 

 

 

 

[Roger440]

18 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

I wouldn't be surprised if super duper insulation (passive house ++++) and solar PV was the cheapest long term method. 

 

Out heat demand is about 3MWh.  If we knocked about 30m2 off the footprint, assumed the same internal heat gains, used an insulated raft foundation and externally insulated over all the frames of doors and windows, and made some of the windows smaller PHPP would have our annual heat demand at about 1200kWh. Direct electric for space heating and PV for summer water heating would be the cheapest option then. 

 

For reference our house only cost €4k more in added insulation and airtighess products than a bregs build. I didn't price the window difference but a neighbour did and 2G to 3G was €800. 

 

 

 

 

 

Puts my house into perspective. I reckon (well if it was colder, this year isnt normal) id do 15-18MWh in a year. Hopefully less, but it will be a useful excercise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Puts my house into perspective. I reckon (well if it was colder, this year isnt normal) id do 15-18MWh in a year. Hopefully less, but it will be a useful excercise.

 

I use under 1500kWh heating the house for a year.  The solar PV generates more than that, but of course not when you need the heating.

[Roger440]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I use under 1500kWh heating the house for a year.  The solar PV generates more than that, but of course not when you need the heating.

 

That really is bugger all.

 

I can dream! I reckon i could get it down to circa 6, maybe a touch less. But it will cost £20k plus. With me doing all the work. And thats keeping the existing boiler. And moving out for 6 months plus. So no financial logic whatsoever.

 

Just got to get combined household income under £31k, then i can have it all done for free courtesy of the welsh government.........

[joth]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

You keep , in your posts, ignoring the capital outlay for a full system, batteries ands solar

But the OP is literally about running costs only, not capital outlay. So in the context of this thread quoting running cost only comparisons is completely reasonable and on point. 

 

[Roger440]

4 minutes ago, joth said:

But the OP is literally about running costs only, not capital outlay. So in the context of this thread quoting running cost only comparisons is completely reasonable and on point. 

 

 

Not really. I was responding to Johnmo who, more than once claims how cheap his system is to run. Which is great. But only because of the huge capital outlay.

 

Talking about one without the other, is, frankly pointless. Indeed to OP link to MOD is relevant to this. Dirt cheap to fit, probably not so cheap to run.

 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

 

Not this again.

 

You keep , in your posts, ignoring the capital outlay for a full system, batteries ands solar. Of course its cheap to run. But was hardly cheap to buy ? Payback period? Lots is the answer. Fortunate that you can fund it and take the long term view.

 

So yes, i can agree with you, that contrary to nods assertion that gas must be cheaper. But only if looking at half the picture. Otherwise, he is correct.

 

 

Plenty of people spend way more on an electric vehicle or diesel etc, with zero returns, just money lost every day and every mile. So no big deal, it's how I want to spend my money. Spent about £3k buying and installing the heat pump and cylinder. Reason is I want small bills, for when I retire.

 

Read the thread title - I am just pointing out heat pumps can be cheap to run. 

 

When comparing to indirect electric heating as the MOD is proposing, would be on a similar time of use tariff, but the energy input, would equate in my case, to 3.7 amount. So cost way more to the end user.

 

 

[Roger440]

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Plenty of people spend way more on an electric vehicle or diesel etc, with zero returns, just money lost every day and every mile. So no big deal, it's how I want to spend my money. Spent about £3k buying and installing the heat pump and cylinder. Reason is I want small bills, for when I retire.

 

Read the thread title - I am just pointing out heat pumps can be cheap to run. 

 

When comparing to indirect electric heating as the MOD is proposing, would be on a similar time of use tariff, but the energy input, would equate in my case, to 3.7 amount. So cost way more to the end user.

 

 

 

Sounds great. But my point is, its cheap to run because it was expensive to install. Your money, your choice. But its cheap for a reason. Because of all the extra tackle you have tacked on. Which usually doesnt get a mention. But is absolutely key to its performance.

 

Im unclear how you get a heat pump and cylinder installed for £3k though? Anything under 5 figures seems to be impossible. Id do it myself, but i still couldnt do it for that.

 

Id like small bills when i retire, but i see no route to achieving it. 

 

Agree completely on the MOD thing. But for them, it will be a box ticked. No buring of fossil fuel. Minimal disruption. Who cares what it costs to run? We will be paying for it.