Neighbour planning permission

[mid-ulster N ire]

Hello I was wondering if my neighbour who has recently gotten approved planning for a site next to my laneway the initial outline showed coming in directly next to my laneway although doesn't show my boundary of a lay-by which is mine which they would be coming through, they then tried for reserved matter with there new entrance next to my lay-by but the roads asked for it to be moved down beside my laneway again which would be coming through my lay-by. Can they use this new entrance even though it's coming through my boundary beside the laneway or is it at my discretion. The lay-by is roughly 3metres in off the road which would mean them crossing roughly 2metres of my property by about 10metres roadside as I think the roads own the grass verge of roughly 1metre. Sorry for the long message but any help would be great. I didn't object as we are on good terms and was told the entrance would be alongside my lay-by but not coming through it and reserved matters passed very quickly

[DevilDamo]

Sorry, but what?

[markc]

You are on good terms with your neighbour but don’t want them driving into ‘your’ lay-by? I really can’t see what the problem is here

[Susie]

Are you worried about heavy plant damaging the area or them developing a right of way?  Will any services pass the area?

we have a right of way over our neighbours drive as it was all old farm buildings, at the end of the build we have said we will make good to better than it is now, old stone and potholes, and our neighbour is happy. 
our water supply will enter down the drive parallel to 4 other water supplies, this will be very inconvenient, but we all get on.

 

[dpmiller]

so instead of just being along your sightline, their entrance ends up in the actual mouth of your lane? That would require legal documentation I'd say.

[Marvin]

Hi @mid-ulster N ire

 

If you could do a quick sketch it would help people understand......

 

The rules on applying for planning permission, I think, in England, have changed a little, meaning, as far as I understand, that you can only apply for planning permission on your own land or on other peoples land with the express permission from the owner/owners. (I may be corrected by someone about this) So who owns what?

 

On the sketch please indicate exactly where and who owns what, and what items people have legal rights to access, and this may help you to understand whats what.

 

Good luck

 

Marvin

[ToughButterCup]

A photo, or series of photos, or a plan, or screenshot from a mapping program would help us help you.  Short annotations on the diagram help a lot.

 

Direct, simply phrased questions  help us read your posts. Are you asking;

• Can my neighbour gain access to their own site across my land?

If you are asking that question, then your permission is the only thing needed.  Do they need temporary or permanent access?

 

Since this is your first post, it's probably a good idea to point out we are not experts. Just interested, hard-bitten, gnarled, ugly but supportive building obsessives.  There is no substitiute for doing your own Due Diligence.   Here is an explanation of that term. 

[Temp]

OK so in short..  You think their proposed access crosses your land. 

 

That's legal if part of your land is public highway. You need to find out. I suggest writing to the highways department enclosing a site plan and ask if they can confirm where the highway boundary lies.

 

 

 

[mid-ulster N ire]

I find it quite amusing people giving there opinion saying just because we are on good terms what is the problem etc when everyone knows anything can change and its in everyone's best interests to protect there own property etc

[mid-ulster N ire]

I have enclosed a quick sketch the black is my laneway and the lay-by which the Highway owns roughly 1metre and the rest is about 2.2metres of mine, the red outline is neighbours land and the blue is there granted entrance into there new proposed site along with there own layby. Clearly showing they will be coming in through my legally owned (2.2m x 10m) along the fronting Road.

Planning have said they take no part in boundary disputes as its personal between neighbours. 

[Kelvin]

What’s your specific issue? What do you want the outcome to be? Do you intend to try and stop their access to their property? Have you spoken to your neighbour about it? Can you see a reasonable alternative solution? 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Kelvin

[Kelvin]

45 minutes ago, mid-ulster N ire said:

I find it quite amusing people giving there opinion saying just because we are on good terms what is the problem etc when everyone knows anything can change and its in everyone's best interests to protect there own property etc

It’s because nearly everyone on here is your neighbour. 

[ProDave]

That is a very unusual boundary line for you to own the layby space?

 

What is your concern as long as the addition to the layby us properly surfaced? 

[mid-ulster N ire]

My concern is down the line legally what right have they to cross my boundary. future sales of my property etc possible future disputes. The lay-by space is there because there is an additional property on my land and it was one of the conditions the road service put in.

I will give an example for all the "neighbours" on this site.

If I was to sell my additional site on my land which includes the lay-by which way does this leave me considering my neighbour crosses over the boundary belonging to the site.

 

[ProDave]

9 minutes ago, mid-ulster N ire said:

The lay-by space is there because there is an additional property on my land and it was one of the conditions the road service put in.

So did you buy the lay by space from someone else to achieve that requirement?

[dpmiller]

Is it really a layby or just the mouth of the lane? I think the way it works is that you own right up to the road but DRD have rights to maintain the verge along the sightline

[mid-ulster N ire]

It's like I said in previous message there is a 1metre grass verge along the roadside which I believe would be the roads and there property then the additional lay-by would be my owned property and its not just the mouth of the lane the lay-by is yet to be built but is to be built for my additional site for access whenever the base goes down next year. 

[Kelvin]

It you’re worried about the legals down the line but happy in principle with the access then speak with your neighbour about getting something drawn up. However it’s your neighbour that ought to be concerned about future access to their plot. 
 

 

[vfrdave]

I'm confused on this one. My understanding is as follows:-

- A land registry map in NI likely shows you own to the middle of the road, particularly if rural. Given mid-ulster I assume that is the case.

- Roads service have rights to maintain what constitutes the highway (hedge to hedge, fence to fence etc), by virtue of some ancient law.  This feeds into maintaining sight lines over someone else's land ie a sight line exists and you just need visibility over it.

- to get a new access for a property over land owned by someone else, for it to be long-standing and stand up to dispute should be a legal agreement for right of access.

 

What confuses me is that the lay-by is yet to be built, but will be for access to your additional site.  Therefore what is proposed above will end up being a shared access?  In the country in NI this can be limiting for mortgages etc

[mid-ulster N ire]

Thanks Dave for your reply. It was myself that sold the ground for the neighbour and when sold I kept the lay-by as this per planning was supposed to be for post vans etc for safely coming off the main road and down the existing laneway on picture. I am trying to protect my assets as the neighbour had said to me there new entrance was to be alongside my lay-by but obviously the roads weren't happy and they have proceeded to go through planning going through my lay-by. 

[ProDave]

That does sound like you have helped create your own problem.

 

This is just like our previous house, planners dictated both plots take access from the same service layby.  As both plots were under the same ownership when outline planning was granted, when they were sold, the area forming the shared layby was sold as jointly owned by the 2 plots.  It never presented any problem.

[ETC]

Firstly - if you own ANY part of the land your neighbour proposes to cross they will need YOUR consent irrespective of what the planners have granted.

 

Secondly - I have a feeling that your neighbour might have included part of your land within his red line which the planners have now granted approval for.

 

You need to get hold of the planning site plan and location map and see where your neighbour’s red line is and how the access has been designed.

[Gus Potter]

4 hours ago, mid-ulster N ire said:

I am trying to protect my assets as the neighbour had said to me there new entrance was to be alongside my lay-by but obviously the roads weren't happy and they have proceeded to go through planning going through my lay-by. 

Hope this helps.

 

You starting point is the probably the Highways guidance. In Scotland we use the "Designing Streets" document. It's worth looking at this as it will help you navigate the English guidance.

 

Without a detailed drawing it's a bit hard to comment properly but several issues present, I list the ones that spring to mind initially.

 

1/ Did the applicant miss represent the facts in terms of the drawings and statement of land ownership.

 

2/ What are the conditions on the approval.

 

3/ I suspect that they may be relying on achieving a visibility splay over land you own. You could if you wish plant or park something in the layby? I assume the Highways own what would be an extension of the verge, the first metre and you own the rest. Visibility splays often require a 2.0 m set back or a 2.4 m set back from the verge line.. so looks like they will need visibility over land you own.

 

This could put a potential burden on your property in terms of maintaining a clear visibility display. If you don't and there is an accident then you could find yourself liable.. Look VERY closely at the visibilty display requirements.

 

4/ The two access' seem to be very close together.. normally they are much further apart. Again, this could put a burden on your property, not least in terms of maintenance but keeping say gravel off the highway. If the neighbours don't maintain their "bit" it could spill over and you get the blame too if there is an accident.

 

5/ If the site behind has potential for further future development potential then you don't want to lose control of the access.. as you could miss out on being able to negotiate a windfall payment or just stop any further development if you so desire.

 

I think it's great idea to get on with your neighbours but the problem often occurs when they move on and you get a plonker moving in.

 

@ToughButterCup did a post recently about what can happen if you don't nip things in the bud early, can be painful. I can't find the link to the post but other folk will know how. It's well worth a read.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Gus Potter

[Temp]

2 hours ago, ETC said:

Firstly - if you own ANY part of the land your neighbour proposes to cross they will need YOUR consent irrespective of what the planners have granted

 

I don't think that's true if that bit of your land is highway. Thats why the OP needs to know where the highway boundary is. Some houses own the land to the middle of the road. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Temp

[Gus Potter]

15 minutes ago, Temp said:

Some houses own the land to the middle of the road.

True enough but rights are shared in accordance with the deeds.. between the Highways and the land owner if that is the case.

 

2 hours ago, ETC said:

stly - if you own ANY part of the land your neighbour proposes to cross they will need YOUR consent irrespective of what the planners have granted.

@ETC agree also and not least access and rights can be shared. The Highways may own one part to which you have rights, and you own another part to which they have rights.

 

The main thing is to nip it in the bud early before folk start thinking they have timed out the planning system or start agueing the have some servitude (also called easement in England) rights.

 

In Scotland we have a road, the A83 that has gobbled up tens of millions of pounds due to land slips and the delay has trashed the local economy.. The Scottish, they call themselves a government, read big town council,still have no solution. All the big Engineering Consultancies (some of these are the multi nationals have had a shot at fixing this) .. but see the little road at the bottom and the bit on the other side of the Glen away from the problem.. it belongs to someone who has clout and they are not going to let the amateures in Edinburgh run rough shod over them.

 

@mid-ulster N ire One of the secrets of this is to lay down the markers, reference some research, provide evidence, contradict the evidence submitted by the applicant you are objecting to and then chuck the ball back in the Planner's court.. but essentially always ask for a response and give a dead line. You need to pin them down, make them run up the clock, cost them money and that concentrates the managers of the planners you are having to deal with minds.

 

Make sure you put all this in writing and copy in someone "of standing". An easy way is to just bung you laywer a few quid just to keep the copies of the emails and let the Planners see you are copying them in.