Oh dear

[SteamyTea]

So this government has gone from the 'Greenest Ever, with the then lead, Dave, putting up a wind turbine on his home, to one that is happy to pollute rivers, reduce building standards, allow some houses to carry on burning, can't auction off a wind turbine site, and will let us buy ICE vehicles for an extra 5 years.

Same government that is backing Tata to build a Giga factory in Somerset to make batteries.

 

(expletive deleted)ing shower of shit they are.

[ProDave]

Not at all "oh dear"

 

A touch of reality.

 

I have long said it is pointless telling us all to get an EV until the extra generation capacity is there to charge them, and preferably from green sources not just burning more fossil fuel to charge your "green" EV  Same for heat pumps, we can't make them, install them and provide the power for them quick enough to all have one in such a short time.

 

And a realisation that bringing old buildings up to modern building standards is not possible for an affordable sum.

 

So at last, we might get a plan to go green in a proper thought out, progressive manner as fast as we can sensibly achieve without crippling the economy or pissing off the electorate.

 

Such a realistic, achievable plan is far more likely to be taken on board and acted on by the public than some unachievable plan that stands no hope of being achieved.

 

I am a lot more confident today that we might actually manage to go green in a sensible manner now.  Well done for having the balls to make these changes.

[nod]

I did say this quite a while back 

Gas boilers on new builds next 

Watch this space 

[Mr Blobby]

30 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

So this government has gone from the 'Greenest Ever, with the then lead, Dave, putting up a wind turbine on his home, to one that is happy to pollute rivers, reduce building standards, allow some houses to carry on burning, can't auction off a wind turbine site, and will let us buy ICE vehicles for an extra 5 years.

Same government that is backing Tata to build a Giga factory in Somerset to make batteries.

 

(expletive deleted)ing shower of shit they are.

 

Anything to get votes.  Anything at all at whatever cost. 

 

Meanwhile China is installing more wind turbines than the rest of the world and investing billions in electrification of transport and decarbonisation.  How does China do it?  Because China is a dictatorship that doesn't have a four year election cycle with politicians prostituting themselves for cheap votes.

 

Democracy is destroying the planet.  How strange a world we live in.

 

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, ProDave said:

touch of reality.

It is anything but.

 

There seems to still be a misunderstanding that our current cars, boilers and houses must be renewed, or upgraded by 2030.

All the 2030 date was was a ban on the sale of new ICE cars and combustion boilers, no on e was going to come around your house and confiscate it.

There is currently enough generation capacity to charge about 10 million EVs, most of which will be charged at home, so there is a secondary myth that we do not have the capacity, we do.  We currently also have about 20 GW of spare generation capacity if we really need it (assuming we can buy the gas from Norway).

 

Giving house builder/town planners 8 years to design, build and operate a house suitable for heat pumps is hardly rushing into things.  A lot of places down here are already being fitted with them, and roof integrated PV, it is not new technology after all.

 

We are going to hear all the same ill informed, and down right silly arguments all again as we we approach the 2030 deadline.

 

It is really about the upcoming general election, and like the perceived threat from Nigel Farage, the Tories are running scared and knee jerking.

 

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

China is a dictatorship that doesn't have a four year election cycle

Ours is a 5 year, fixed term, parliament.

It takes an act of parliament to have an election before that.

The last few elections shows how little regard this government has for parliamentary rules and law.

[Mr Blobby]

13 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Ours is a 5 year, fixed term, parliament.

It takes an act of parliament to have an election before that.

The last few elections shows how little regard this government has for parliamentary rules and law.

 

The term isn't that relevant really, the principle remains the same.

Besides, the five year fixed parliament act was repealed in March 2022. Elections can be called at any time.

[SimonD]

1 hour ago, nod said:

I did say this quite a while back 

Gas boilers on new builds next

Watch this space 

 

Of course. Their developer buddies will now be sending out dinner invitations that show the politicians their cheque books, reminding them how much money they've 'donated' to the party over the years while teasing them about more...

[IanR]

What's the actual change on "boilers"?

 

From the BBC:

 

It was only the replacement of off-grid fossil fuel boilers that was to be outlawed from 2026. Looks like these have just come in line with on-grid gas boilers.

 

...and a 50% increase in the BUS grant for ASHP. 

[nod]

6 hours ago, IanR said:

What's the actual change on "boilers"?

 

From the BBC:

 

It was only the replacement of off-grid fossil fuel boilers that was to be outlawed from 2026. Looks like these have just come in line with on-grid gas boilers.

 

...and a 50% increase in the BUS grant for ASHP. 

The main problem with Heat pumps is

They can’t give them away 

Until they make a HP cheaper to run than gas Most homes will rely on gas boilers or oil 

 

We are fitting a HP this time round As there is no gas Cost wise the grant does even things up But the HP will run of electricity that is generated by fossil fuel Which seams like window dressing Everywhere I go there is new gas mains being installed 

All of this seams like political maneuvering

[Big Jimbo]

I didn't think you got any sort of grant for fitting ashp on a new build @nod ?

[ProDave]

7 hours ago, IanR said:

It was only the replacement of off-grid fossil fuel boilers that was to be outlawed from 2026.

What do you mean by "off grid"?

 

I read that as LPG gas or oil, or even solid fuel boilers?  If so there was never an intention to outlaw mains gas boilers?

[JohnMo]

34 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

I didn't think you got any sort of grant for fitting ashp on a new build @nod ?

You do if classified as a self build, you get the full grant.

[Gone West]

11 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

All the 2030 date was was a ban on the sale of new ICE cars

The decision could be made by the car manufacturers irrespective of what the government requires, as yet another manufacturer is to stop making diesels.

 

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2023/09/volvo-to-make-its-last-diesel-vehicle-in-early-2024/

 

 

[joe90]

I think I have said this before, my son works for Ford and they have been told not to take EV,s back in part exchange as there is a glut of them as so many people are going back to ICE because of a lack of range and charging points. I think there needs to be other options like non oil fuels.

Yesterday I drove through Bristol where row after row of terraced houses exists where charging at home is impossible and even parking outside your home is impossible, how are these people going to use EV,s 🤷‍♂️

[Big Jimbo]

@JohnMo I had no idea. So basically I need to just find an MSc installer to quote me ?

[joe90]

11 hours ago, Mr Blobby said:

Anything to get votes.  Anything at all at whatever cost. 

Funnily enough I was watching back episodes of “house of cards” on Netflix last night and  the president was told he was not going to be able to run in the next elections so he decided to do things that benefitted the country rather than get votes 🤷‍♂️

[jfb]

12 hours ago, ProDave said:

And a realisation that bringing old buildings up to modern building standards is not possible for an affordable sum

No doubt it isn’t easy to upgrade floors and walls in some old buildings.

but are you seriously saying that it is a good thing that the government is postponing forcing a landlord who has little incentive otherwise to put 300mm of loft insulation instead of the minimum shoddy 100mm that might be there in their rental properties?

[Mattg4321]

12 hours ago, Mr Blobby said:

 

Anything to get votes.  Anything at all at whatever cost. 

 

Meanwhile China is installing more wind turbines than the rest of the world and investing billions in electrification of transport and decarbonisation.  How does China do it?  Because China is a dictatorship that doesn't have a four year election cycle with politicians prostituting themselves for cheap votes.

 

Democracy is destroying the planet.  How strange a world we live in.

 

The same China that has approved more than 50GW of coal power in 2023 alone. They have over 1100GW of capacity in total. Much of it used to manufacture our EV’s and solar panels etc. 
 

The U.K. has less than 2.5GW of coal powered capacity. 

[IanR]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

What do you mean by "off grid"?

 

I read that as LPG gas or oil, or even solid fuel boilers?  If so there was never an intention to outlaw mains gas boilers?

 

Off (gas) grid is the term the government use for those properties that can't connect to the gas network.

 

Oil, coal and LPG replacements were to be outlawed from 2026, biomass would still be aloud in certain circumstances.

 

Replacement on grid gas was to be outlawed (and still is) from 2035

 

From 2025 new builds are not to be connected to the gas network. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by IanR

[Tetrarch]

1 hour ago, jfb said:

No doubt it isn’t easy to upgrade floors and walls in some old buildings.

but are you seriously saying that it is a good thing that the government is postponing forcing a landlord who has little incentive otherwise to put 300mm of loft insulation instead of the minimum shoddy 100mm that might be there in their rental properties?

 

If that is the desire then make that the requirement. Virtually any house can have 300mm of roof insulation installed at a (relatively) low cost. Tying landlords to a riduclous EPC-derived* standard was always insane as many properties would not be possible to upgrade under almost any circumstances. 

 

Regards

 

Tet

 

* - EPC's are genuinely insane. I currently live in a property with an official EPC of 4 

[MikeSharp01]

2 hours ago, IanR said:

Oil, coal and LPG replacements were to be outlawed from 2026, biomass would still be aloud in certain circumstances

So is off grid now on the same - non new boilers as the on grid?

[IanR]

24 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

So is off grid now on the same - non new boilers as the on grid?

 

That's how I'm reading it. Hopefully some updated policy documents will be published soon. 

[Mr Blobby]

6 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

The same China that has approved more than 50GW of coal power in 2023 alone. They have over 1100GW of capacity in total. Much of it used to manufacture our EV’s and solar panels etc. 
 

The U.K. has less than 2.5GW of coal powered capacity. 

 

 

For every GW of wind capacity there needs to be a GW of conventional thermal plant for when the wind doesn't blow.  We still build gas turbines to match wind generation capacity. We have a gas network so it's easy for us to build CCGTs that are more efficient and very easy to run compared to coal plant.

 

Thermal plant is also required for network stability like frequency and voltage regulation. 

The more wind capacity the less reliance on thermal plant, but the thermal plant still needs to be constructed as an insurance policy for when the wind doesn't blow.

 

In the UK there are a lot of gas power stations that sit idle most of the time but they still get built.  Similarly in China constructing coal plant is not the same as running coal plant.

 

But most people have no idea that China is building more wind capacity than the rest of the world.  And China will be the world leader in EVs because of massive long term investment while the European car industry is years behind.

 

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

For every GW of wind capacity there needs to be a GW of conventional thermal plant for when the wind doesn't blow. 

Not really so.

Installed capacity is not the same as generation, RE generated differently from FF, i.e. you cannot schedule up to the Betz's Limit for a windturbine, but you can for a hydro (usually), gas or nuclear.  This means they are integrated into the national grid differently.

Demand side management can take up a lot of the slack.  2 decades ago there was a few studies done showing that anything more than 25% RE would cause grid stability, we now frequently hit close to 60% RE penetration.

While it is still early days for demand side management, storage is moving ahead.  

So it may be fairer to say that for every MW of RE name plate capacity, we would need a MWh of storage (or whatever the numbers say we need). 

 

As for EVs, if you buy a Tesla, it is almost certainly made in China.

They make good cars now.