Vaillant ashp (my battle with).

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

That bloke down the pub, now I understand. At least it's all straight now.

No.

 

By whoever did the structure calculations. As I keep saying but evidently falls on deaf ears.

 

The pro chaps with his clipboard, after zipping round Zoot Acres doing his sums, refused to green light the install. 
 

I begged. Because my cylinder was a rusty mouse-ridden clapped out affair, & the install would offer me a new one. How am I meant -not- to beg him?
 

Zoot

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Or just switch off the ASHP and do nothing. He seems to want a cold house. This threads being going on for 2.5 years and nothing changes. He had a cold house then, and still does.

Hang on.

 

Thread title JohnMo, is Battle with Vaillant. My battle lasted 5 years. I needed & the intention of the thread was to

 

A) warn prospective folks of this Co's fairly hapless hardware (new one, 3 weeks & a fault- say no more)

 

B) perhaps glean some BH support &/ or advice, by dipping in halfway through the battle at 2.5 years: it's taken a year off my life in stress.

And everyone now sticks up for Vaillant's hardware, rarely for me. All I did, picking up the thread recently a year later, was 1) to inform folks of winning my David-Goliath struggle, & then 2) to say incredulously that Ive already had a fault in 3 weeks of the new one.

 

Ok? Thanks, Zoot

 

 

[ProDave]

37 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Because that will struggle too. And Ive just had this installed!

Oh no it won't.........

 

If you really don't believe a 30kW oil boiler would succeed in heating your house then there is no hope whatsoever for getting your house warm because you won't try anything.

[-rick-]

@zoothorn

 

I think I was the one who saw you saying you were still cold and suggested you try again at making changes to things so you could get warm. I know you didn't come back here asking for that, but since you have a new system it does seem worth trying.

 

I agree with @Nickfromwales that this thread could do with a timeout until after the engineer visit.

 

We are all trying to help. I know some of the suggestions seem wrong to you. The go against your experience. All I can say is that people aren't making these things up, they are the result of real-life experience in their own and friends homes. We are passing on what has worked for us and many others.

 

Once the engineer has visited then you have a choice, you can come back here and work with us to try new things (even things that seem wrong to you) to see if it works, or you can not.

 

As a group I think we all think its possible for you to be much more comfortable than you are now (not perfect, but better). To be clear though, it will cost you more in bills. If you can't stand any higher bills (at least double what you pay now) then that puts a blocker on things.

[zoothorn]

9 minutes ago, -rick- said:

@zoothorn

 

I think I was the one who saw you saying you were still cold and suggested you try again at making changes to things so you could get warm. I know you didn't come back here asking for that, but since you have a new system it does seem worth trying.

 

I agree with @Nickfromwales that this thread could do with a timeout until after the engineer visit.

 

We are all trying to help. I know some of the suggestions seem wrong to you. The go against your experience. All I can say is that people aren't making these things up, they are the result of real-life experience in their own and friends homes. We are passing on what has worked for us and many others.

 

Once the engineer has visited then you have a choice, you can come back here and work with us to try new things (even things that seem wrong to you) to see if it works, or you can not.

 

As a group I think we all think its possible for you to be much more comfortable than you are now (not perfect, but better). To be clear though, it will cost you more in bills. If you can't stand any higher bills (at least double what you pay now) then that puts a blocker on things.

Absolutely agree Rick.

 

I do appreciate what folks are saying, & once visit happens (tbh surely a quick fix- chap should have time for Q's) I can put his suggestions up/ see what he thinks of your 'list reply I've bookmarked.

 

Whether I'll understand him though, is often the problem for me. I'll do my best though.

 

Firstly see if I can persuade him to put controller/ thermostat, well away from near to cylinder as it is now. If not, ask him how I'd do it myself. That'll be a start, even if I'm thinking of convenience to get at it, rather than your pov which is to move it chiefly to put it in a cold room. 
 

Thanks fir the help chaps, it's all welcome even if loggerheads  arise. Zoot

 

 

[-rick-]

11 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Firstly see if I can persuade him to put controller/ thermostat, well away from near to cylinder as it is now. If not, ask him how I'd do it myself. That'll be a start, even if I'm thinking of convenience to get at it, rather than your pov which is to move it chiefly to put it in a cold room. 

 

The important thing is the thermostat is moved into the cold, old, part of the building, not close a raditor or other heat source. It doesn't strictly have to be the coldest room as long as its generally cold in the area.

 

Putting it in the hallway or the bottom of the stairs is common.

 

If you moved it into your warm bedroom/warm workshop that would be bad and might make things worse.

Edited yesterday at 11:24 by -rick-

[ProDave]

Another issue with heat pumps, is the supplied controller often comes with a pre made cable to connect it and that is not always very long.  Mine would not reach to where I ultimately would have liked it, so is in my plant room / workshop.  That is another reason why I don't use the timer or thermostat built into the ASHP controller and instead configured it to use external controls.

 

So just "move your thermostat" might not be a trivial exercise.

[-rick-]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

So just "move your thermostat" might not be a trivial exercise.

 

@Nickfromwales's suggestion of just wiring in an external wireless one is the easy solution to that. TBH I think that's likely the better option in anycase. But doesn't seem like something that will be ready for Monday.

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Because that will struggle too. And Ive just had this installed!

No it won't, a 30kw oil boiler would cook you alive in there. Accept this as a fact because I have installed gas and oil all my life. It's not a hobby, it's fed and clothed us, and if nothing worked I wouldn't have a career out of it would I? 

 

Part 1.

 

Please stop ignoring the fact that I live in a near identical house to yours, it's a little frustrating for you to keep dismissing direct and factual information.

 

My gas boiler doesn't ever output more than 12-14kw, because my house is never allowed to go "stone cold" each day (in winter) and only ever runs at its max output when producing instant hot water (it's a combi boiler).

 

To shut down what the buffoons who fitted this have stupidly said to you, because it is absolute and total fecking nonsense, you can listen to and rely upon what I am saying to you, because I happily consider myself to be an 'expert' in making homes comfortable. 

 

I've been fitting oil boilers / gas boilers / electric 1 and 3 phase boilers / ASHP's and GSHP's for around 30 years.

 

Installing MVHR etc for over 10 years.

 

Wiring things for over 36 years, including the QMII before it's maiden voyage out of Southampton.

 

Listen to me, and all the other people on here, most of whom know more than I do and have all got ASHP's or gas boilers, and they all work.

 

****************

 

Part 2.

 

I have already offered a solution which was to run the heating at night on the setback temp, the one you said you'd ask the engineer to implement for you so we can run at least one months TRIAL of the heating.

 

I suggested times for the heating to go between comfort and setback, I said go for 15^oC setback (this would not overheat you, but it would also allow the rest of the house to not go "stone cold"), and you can define these to suit your wishes; I suggested 22:00 - "setback" 07:00 - "comfort". 

 

This is how I use mine, but with a very small difference in temp between night and day. I do this because it is cheaper to not let the house go "stone cold" every night. FACT.

 

The above methodology of going from setback > comfort > setback > comfort and so on, is done by you having the heating "ON CONSTANT" vs it going "ON/OFF", but it will cycle the heat in only to replace what is lost to the clouds eg it won't be overheating you at all, just keeping you at the lowest temperature that you will accept (the one where you cant see your breath at night).

 

 

*************

 

Part 3.

 

The extra room stat would take command of the times and temp, and would avoid you needing to learn how to make these changes on the fixed controller that came with the ASHP.

 

I suggested this as:

a) it needs to be moved

b) moving it requires cable / time / labour / higher cost (even though I'd insist your "expert" should move it for free as it's their laziness that has resulted in it being in the wrong place) so you'd be spending money moving a thing you still fear or cannot manipulate.

c) the units like mine are very easy to use and to program / make changes on. These have simple timeclocks which are no more difficult to set than a digital alarm clock. This means as you trial and error different temps at different times, you can make these changes without any "experts" needing be in attendance. The one that you have now just becomes an installer interface for making fundamental changes (such as the 40-45 flow temp settings and hot water temp setting)

 

Lets get heating cracked, and then the installer tomorrow can better time the hot water to suit you. Think today what times each day you need the tank hot and ask him to set these times.

 

 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

No it won't, a 30kw oil boiler would cook you alive in there. Accept this as a fact because I have installed gas and oil all my life. It's not a hobby, it's fed and clothed us, and if nothing worked I wouldn't have a career out of it would I? 

 

Part 1.

 

Please stop ignoring the fact that I live in a near identical house to yours, it's a little frustrating for you to keep dismissing direct and factual information.

 

My gas boiler doesn't ever output more than 12-14kw, because my house is never allowed to go "stone cold" each day (in winter) and only ever runs at its max output when producing instant hot water (it's a combi boiler).

 

To shut down what the buffoons who fitted this have stupidly said to you, because it is absolute and total fecking nonsense, you can listen to and rely upon what I am saying to you, because I happily consider myself to be an 'expert' in making homes comfortable. 

 

I've been fitting oil boilers / gas boilers / electric 1 and 3 phase boilers / ASHP's and GSHP's for around 30 years.

 

Installing MVHR etc for over 10 years.

 

Wiring things for over 36 years, including the QMII before it's maiden voyage out of Southampton.

 

Listen to me, and all the other people on here, most of whom know more than I do and have all got ASHP's or gas boilers, and they all work.

 

****************

 

Part 2.

 

I have already offered a solution which was to run the heating at night on the setback temp, the one you said you'd ask the engineer to implement for you so we can run at least one months TRIAL of the heating.

 

I suggested times for the heating to go between comfort and setback, I said go for 15^oC setback (this would not overheat you, but it would also allow the rest of the house to not go "stone cold"), and you can define these to suit your wishes; I suggested 22:00 - "setback" 07:00 - "comfort". 

 

This is how I use mine, but with a very small difference in temp between night and day. I do this because it is cheaper to not let the house go "stone cold" every night. FACT.

 

The above methodology of going from setback > comfort > setback > comfort and so on, is done by you having the heating "ON CONSTANT" vs it going "ON/OFF", but it will cycle the heat in only to replace what is lost to the clouds eg it won't be overheating you at all, just keeping you at the lowest temperature that you will accept (the one where you cant see your breath at night).

 

 

*************

 

Part 3.

 

The extra room stat would take command of the times and temp, and would avoid you needing to learn how to make these changes on the fixed controller that came with the ASHP.

 

I suggested this as:

a) it needs to be moved

b) moving it requires cable / time / labour / higher cost (even though I'd insist your "expert" should move it for free as it's their laziness that has resulted in it being in the wrong place) so you'd be spending money moving a thing you still fear or cannot manipulate.

c) the units like mine are very easy to use and to program / make changes on. These have simple timeclocks which are no more difficult to set than a digital alarm clock. This means as you trial and error different temps at different times, you can make these changes without any "experts" needing be in attendance. The one that you have now just becomes an installer interface for making fundamental changes (such as the 40-45 flow temp settings and hot water temp setting)

 

Lets get heating cracked, and then the installer tomorrow can better time the hot water to suit you. Think today what times each day you need the tank hot and ask him to set these times.

 

 

If he ignores this, then there is no hope.

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

If he ignores this, then there is no hope.

The nation is on the edge of their seats.

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

clothed us,

A legend in a loincloth.

[dpmiller]

one could always try not even moving the thermostat but just turning it up a few degrees. Wherever the tank is will still track the rest of the house, even if it's a wee bit higher...

[-rick-]

1 hour ago, dpmiller said:

Wherever the tank is will still track the rest of the house, even if it's a wee bit higher...

 

In a normal house maybe. But not so sure in this particular one, especially during the warm up phase. The 2ft thick walls downstairs will still be emitting coolth, long after the modern upstairs bedroom has warmed up.

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, dpmiller said:

one could always try not even moving the thermostat but just turning it up a few degrees. Wherever the tank is will still track the rest of the house, even if it's a wee bit higher...

Stop it! 🤦‍♂️

[Dillsue]

20 hours ago, zoothorn said:

By whoever did the structure calculations. As I keep saying but evidently falls on deaf ears.

 

The pro chaps with his clipboard, after zipping round Zoot Acres doing his sums, refused to green light the install. 

And what if the "pro chap" is wrong? Thats perfectly plausible.

 

A "professional" company told me I needed a 12kw heat pump when my calculations said 8kw was my heat loss. I put in a 7kw pump and the house has sat at 21 degrees since mid September.

 

Not all professionals are as professional as they should be so maybe have a rethink on what people are saying in this thread, some of whom I believe are professionals. Don't forget the professionals that have managed to heat to old stone building linked to previously. Google historic England or the energy saving trust for lots more examples.....they're all professionals

[Big Jimbo]

Best of luck with your heating bloke this morning Zoot the hoot.

[MrSniff]

I've watched this thread for a while, and for what it's worth thought I would try to translate some of what's been said, one layman to another... 

 

I believe it is now widely recognised that on/off blocks of heating are not the most efficient way to heat any house. Instead, the system is "always on": what were the "off times" are just set to a lower target temperature ("set-back"). For example, the thermostat can be set to a target room temperature of 16 degrees during the day and the set-back target of 14 degrees overnight. Especially important for any building that is not well insulated as heat will leak and on the coldest days may not recover to the required daytime temperature.

 

Others can correct me, but because the heating system is "low and slow" (design, not fault) the lower set-back temperature setting should probably not be more than 2 degrees or so below the daytime temperature setting. This gives rooms a chance to reach the higher daytime target temperature. For the same low and slow reason, the target temperature should be set at the higher level a couple of hours or so before you get up; it can then be set to drop a couple of hours before bedtime for rooms to cool. For example:

                  00.00 - 04.00 17 degrees (setback target, not off!)

                  04.00 - 21.00 19 degrees (daytime target)

                  21.00 - 00.00 17 degrees (setback target, not off!)

 

If the thermostat is in the warmest place in the house it will never fully impact the coldest place. If it is currently with the hot water cylinder which will leak heat, the coldest parts don't stand a chance of warming up, as it will turn the radiators off. That's why Nick and others have suggested getting the controller/thermostat moved if possible, probably to the coldest room or the one you use the most (not a bedroom), or getting a remote one which take with you to whichever room you use. That room will then define if your heating has reached the required temperature.

 

As all the others have said, this does work, even in an uninsulated house. BUT it takes time to get to that point in the first place and yes, the radiators will be on permanently for days until the room reaches the target temperature. The reason is that the solid walls are cold and damp, and so suck the heat out of the air. Only when the walls are dryer and beginning to warm, will you start to feel the warmth in the air without having to sit on a radiator. Having the radiators on for just 4 hours per day does not give this process a chance. You can speed this process up by using another heat source alongside the radiator system. A dehumidifier may also help (comment/correction welcome on that one!). To keep costs to a minimum the system should be run this way right from the end of summer when the walls are at their driest and warmest (as already suggested).

 

(Even our 9" solid wall 1926 semi takes time to feel warm after we've been away for a while, and I have to turn the heating on a couple of days before we go back (it's set to 13 degrees while away, and then a similar schedule to the above when we're there.) 

 

At the end of the day, the decisions I suggest you need to make, and only you can do this, are:

·      Do you trust that people on this forum are only trying to help (hint: yes!!), and are generally more knowledgeable than many installers (in the majority of my experience, definitely, and I have benefitted from the advice on this forum)

·      Are you willing to try what they suggest even if it doesn't make sense to you? I suggest suspending your understandable need to understand for now and just try!

·      What is you comfort to price ratio? By that I mean that greater warmth will cost more; would you be happy with, say 16 degrees daytime and 14 degrees nighttime, or spend more money for greater warmth, or less for less?

 

Hope that helps maybe clarify a few bits: good luck...

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

with

Replace with for for.

[zoothorn]

@-rick-

 

I've had engineer visit (couldn't find any fault- but putting that no HW anomally aside)..

 

I put your post to him, he read your actual post. And answered the questions, & I scribbled down best I could.

 

Ok first thing I noticed him say, was if I put the heating to ON (IE permanently) I -cannot- also then dial in a 'setback' temp. This 'seback' he said was only in conjunction with the heating set to blocks of time.

 

So immediately a spanner in the works. And I don't know where I'm at now on this. The setback was a fundamental thing I need, in order for the heating once it's got up to temp, to not dip below. So further confusion for me.

 

The next thing. I asked if 1 radiator can have a TRV on, to stop this overnight rads situation in my bedroom, which afaict, is forced on me if I choose heating ON setting (which now seems less conjusive to me, than before). He said yes.

 

I asked him if I can turn 1 radiator off fully/ always (my workshop, which seems hugely wasteful being the warmest room, but that I spend the least time in). Yes.
 

Trouble also is, to set my heating to ON, is very complicated: I can't just press 2 buttons to set it to ON. No. I have to go into menu & do 6 steps, then back/ back/ etc & out again. Ridiculous. I can't possibly be expected to do this, remember this, each time. Urgh.
 

So now, although understanding putting heating to ON is I what y'all are clamouring me to do, if the 'setback' function is n/a with this, I don't see how it's useable for me, especially if overnight, the rads are in this ON setting, continuing to dip on & off relative to the 18*C 'desired temp' I have it all set to: furthermore the only room I'm in overnight, I might well have a TRV set so this rad produces only a bit of heat: therefore all rooms more or less, with rads on dipping in-out to 18*C, for 8 hours, when I'm not using any.. is to me fundamentally absurdly wasteful).

 

So I think I'm just as confused as I was before he visited!

 

Thanks Zoot

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 minutes ago by zoothorn

[-rick-]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ok first thing I noticed him say, was if I put the heating to ON (IE permanently) I -cannot- also then dial in a 'setback' temp. This 'seback' he said was only in conjunction with the heating set to blocks of time.

 

Yes, on is on at a fixed set point. The timer mode allows you to vary the setpoint over time. The next point on my list was to find out how to adjust the timer. Did you do that?

 

If not, then maybe theres a video on youtube on how to do it, or someone here who knows Valliant can help you through it.

 

Did you have a conversation about the thermostat? What was the answer there?

 

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Trouble is, to set my heating to ON is very complicated: I can't just press 2 buttons to set it to ON. No. I have to go into menu & do 6 steps, then back/ back/ etc & out again. Ridiculous. I can't possibly be expected to do this, remember this, each time. Urgh.

 

It's not something you would want to be fiddling regularly. In the ideal world you would set this up once and then not touch it again. A lot of people will set it up at when things start turning cold and then turn it off when it's warm (but with the right set temperature, even this is not really necessary).

 

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

furthermore the only room I'm in overnight, I might well have a TRV set so this rad produces only a bit of heat: therefore all rooms more or less, with rads on dipping in-out to 18*C, for 8 hours, when I'm not using any.. is to me fundamentally absurdly wasteful).

 

This is a common understanding but it's not exactly correct. In houses with thick stone walls like yours to be comfortable you need to warm up the structure. I know this seems wrong to you, all we can ask is for you to give it a try and see if it works.

 

In my case, I was originally only heating the space I was in, I was warmish, but had very cold feet. Then I switched to trying to heat the whole place up in the morning and letting it cool overnight. It would take hours to get up to temperature and then lose all the heat overnight and have to start again in the morning. This was very expensive. Now I have switched to keeping the place at a relatively constant temperature (with a setback) it's much more comfortable and burns less gas than heating from cold every morning.

[zoothorn]

@-rick-

 
I thought y'all are telling me not to do the timer? 
 

Do you mean 'ask him how to turn the timer off' by putting this question to him-?

 

Zoot

[-rick-]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I thought y'all are telling me not to do the timer? 
 

Do you mean 'ask him how to turn the timer off' by putting this question to him-?

 

Stage 1 was to work out how to just set the thing on all the time. That was the easiest.

 

Stage 2 was to work out how to set the timer. Setting the timer is better but more complicated.

 

Edit: Short term, as a trial just turning it on can be tried. Long term you likely want to adjust the timer.

Edited 3 minutes ago by -rick-