new wiring, all sockets tripping charging a phone !?

[Jenki]

7 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

No. That's the perspective of the photo. The two browns are in the MCB

@Nickfromwales Ok. Fair enough.

 

Neutral don't look correct. 

One out of isolator into neutral bar above isolator , then some circuit neutrals, and I assume a neutral tail supplying the RH N bar. This will cause the RCD to trip. Circuit cables should be correctly located  in the right hand  2 Neutral bars. Not  with the main isolator, these would be for non RCD circuits?

 

[Jenki]

@connick159.

The above image shows a blank unit. Forget the two bits on the RH side.

On the RH side, follow the blue from the isolator up to the RH N bar. From there 2 N go to the 2 RCD's, from each RCD a blue cable  goes to two separate N bars. Yours doesn't seem to do this. You have circuit cables ( on your CU you have  N bar above the isolator with circuit cables.) These should be in the empty N bar further to the Right.

It is essential that any  brown cables connected to MCBs on  an RCD, the corresponding Blue cables are  connected  the N bar of the same RCD. If not it will trip.

Hopefully this helps.

EDIT:

I think, moving this cable from the left to the right might fix the problem. But use the first photo to make sure the logic is the same. 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Jenki

[connick159]

what do you guys reckon would be a reasonable ETA for someone to tear down and redo the consumer units?

I'm thinking of getting a label maker, asking my mate for that cuppa, telling him i'm gunna get someone else in to finish off, and then asking him for help in labeling all the cables coming into the CU's with the label maker. They have marker labeling but it's a bit like reading a doctor's prescription so, if we get them label printed it may make it a bit easier for someone new coming in.

[TonyT]

All depends propbably worth getting an EICR done/ an inspection to see what the rest of the installation is like first then gives you a starting point.

 

someone changing a db only could issue a certification limiting the work to that  so only potential solving half a problem..

 

[ProDave]

8 hours ago, Jenki said:

@connick159.

The above image shows a blank unit. Forget the two bits on the RH side.

On the RH side, follow the blue from the isolator up to the RH N bar. From there 2 N go to the 2 RCD's, from each RCD a blue cable  goes to two separate N bars. Yours doesn't seem to do this. You have circuit cables ( on your CU you have  N bar above the isolator with circuit cables.) These should be in the empty N bar further to the Right.

It is essential that any  brown cables connected to MCBs on  an RCD, the corresponding Blue cables are  connected  the N bar of the same RCD. If not it will trip.

Hopefully this helps.

EDIT:

I think, moving this cable from the left to the right might fix the problem. But use the first photo to make sure the logic is the same. 

 

I think you may be on to something there.

 

How long it would take to sort out depends on the skill of the electrician and a bit of luck. See if moving that N cable fixes some of the issues?

 

My concern is he has looped the feed into the top CU down to the bottom CU.  In which case I await the explanation from the "electrician" as to why none of the circuits connected to the bottom CU require RCD protection.

[Jenki]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

I think you may be on to something there.

 

How long it would take to sort out depends on the skill of the electrician and a bit of luck. See if moving that N cable fixes some of the issues?

 

My concern is he has looped the feed into the top CU down to the bottom CU.  In which case I await the explanation from the "electrician" as to why none of the circuits connected to the bottom CU require RCD protection.

If you look at the empty boards the isolator is on the RH side, and the SWA incoming on the LH side,  possibly moved the Isolator to make it easier and took the Neutral with them.  I think just moving it can't make it any worse. and might be a quick fix.   However the lack of understanding of this, would make me question the quality of the install

 

I'm sure we've all made silly mistakes, and sometimes a little distance and time can be the light bulb moment  needed.

 

[connick159]

17 minutes ago, Jenki said:

If you look at the empty boards the isolator is on the RH side, and the SWA incoming on the LH side,  possibly moved the Isolator to make it easier and took the Neutral with them.  I think just moving it can't make it any worse. and might be a quick fix.   However the lack of understanding of this, would make me question the quality of the install

 

I'm sure we've all made silly mistakes, and sometimes a little distance and time can be the light bulb moment  needed.

 

I'm pretty sure you've hit the nail on the head. An armoured cable brings the feed in from the main fuse and it was put in first I think from memory. The cu then came in and I think he swapped it around as the armoured was on the left. Tbh though, I'm not 100% sure as I was happy to finally be able to outsource a job rather than do it myself so kind of switched off and left them to it.

Thanks for all the help. I think I will pull the main fuse, move that N cable and run the mobile phone charger test again.

Edited May 11, 2023 by connick159

[connick159]

27 minutes ago, ProDave said:

My concern is he has looped the feed into the top CU down to the bottom CU.  In which case I await the explanation from the "electrician" as to why none of the circuits connected to the bottom CU require RCD protection.

Is looping the feed from the top a "big no no"? What is a better way. To put some kind of link or splice onto the main armoured and having that go into an isolator on the bottom board?

 

I think there was RCD's on the bottom but he's moved some of the circuits originally on the top cu down in order to troubleshoot/test and has taken out the rcd's. Again, I'm not 100% sure though. I'll ask.

 

The plan originally was to have main house in top CU and then things like the ashp, garage, outside lights and power, ufh controllers on the bottom. 🤷

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, connick159 said:

Is looping the feed from the top a "big no no"? What is a better way. To put some kind of link or splice onto the main armoured and having that go into an isolator on the bottom board?

I am not convinced that the terminals will take two feeds like that, I would want to give them a good wiggle test to ensure they really are clamped properly and secure.

 

I was questioning why no RCD on the bottom CU I think you have answered it that he has removed it, presumably because it was tripping as well?

 

What really needs to happen is every circuit disconnected.  Confirm the CUs really are configured correctly and work properly, rcd's tested etc.  Then one at a time dead test then reconnect each circuit and then live test it.  If that works, move on to the next etc.  That is probably what a fresh electrician would do if someone else comes in to sort out the mess.

 

And I agree with a comment above, before re connecting one circuit at a time, agree on a sensible split of circuits between the two rcd's,

[joe90]

20 minutes ago, connick159 said:

Is looping the feed from the top a "big no no"? What is a better way.

Henley block? (I am no electrician but I thought this is what they were for?).

Edited May 11, 2023 by joe90

[andyscotland]

9 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Henley block? (I am no electrician but I thought this is what they were for?).

It would definitely be more usual to use a Henley or similar to split the supply outside the consumer units.

 

I'm not certain if there's a specific reg that would exclude looping in per se. But as @ProDave says there may be issues with cable sizing into the terminals and getting a secure connection. If the manufacturer's instructions don't support having two cables that size in the clamp that's a definite no-no.

 

The other thing is not really regs but "principle of least surprise" - a future electrician could reasonably assume that tails coming from another board are isolated by that board - if the split is external it is obvious they're not.

 

Bear in mind though Henley's are only ok on the surface for normal installs because meter tails are insulated and sheathed so have (basic) mechanical protection. The cores of your armour won't be so you'd need to terminate that to an enclosure with the Henley's inside and then use sheathed cable / conduit to take the supplies to the CU.

[elite]

Can be tricky to terminate an SWA into a henley, so the henleys would probably need an enclosure, which might be why they have gone straight into the board. It does beg the question why they haven't used a duplex board that handles passing the line and neutral down to the second board though

 

[ProDave]

14 minutes ago, elite said:

Can be tricky to terminate an SWA into a henley, so the henleys would probably need an enclosure, which might be why they have gone straight into the board. It does beg the question why they haven't used a duplex board that handles passing the line and neutral down to the second board though

 

I am counting a total of 17 circuits connected (there may be some disconnected and there are more than 17 mcb's)

 

The top split load board will take 16 mcb's so surely it would be possible to make some alterations so you only have 16 circuits?

 

Or I would have preferred the top board set up with a main switch and 20 rcbo's  it would have been a lot simpler, a lot better and I doubt much more expensive  (funny enough this is almost exactly what I actually have)

[Carrerahill]

15 hours ago, connick159 said:

Pics. Looks like a bowl of spaghetti ☹️

He says "yes it's still messy at moment but will tidy up". 

Are you sure he is an electrician?

[connick159]

3 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

Are you sure he is an electrician?

I think so. He works for one of the big sparky mobs round here anyway. Has done work for other mates too. But, this may be a bridge too far. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by connick159
Spelling

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, connick159 said:

I think so. He works for one of the big sparky mobs round here anyway. Has done work for other mates too. But, this may be a bridge too far. 

There's a huge difference between being a sparky, and working with sparkies under their supervision. From what's on display I imagine he undertakes smaller / simpler stuff, so agree this is just probably technically beyond his comfort zone. One thing that worries me is that he's clearly out of date ( by a long long time ) with regs / legislation, so he really shouldn't be doing this for anyone at any price ( not even for free ).

The circuits need pulling out of the boards, the boards need replacing with a suitable double-decker CU, and each circuit needs to be tested before being made off into the new CU. Do that, methodically and meticulously, and then you'll find any circuits which are suspect / fail insulation resistance and earth continuity etc, and then problem finding can be narrowed down quickly and economically.

As a man once said "it could be worse", so continue with the glass half full and keep your chin up   

[connick159]

I've called someone else and they are coming to look next Tuesday and give me a price. Pulled the main fuse too actually and stripped out half of the board.

 

I've also told my mate that i'd like everything to stop until the board is sorted. It's been tough and is pretty stressful. I can see how much money I've also wasted on these boards and the gear but, i think at this point, I call it a day with him and have beers with him instead of asking him to continue.

 

I'll then go and punch my other mate in the head who told me to use him.

 

Out of interest, am i out thousands for a double-decker board and rcbo's or is it more like high hundreds? Does anyone know?

 

Hager seems expensive stuff so hate to have to bin it all. ah well, lesson learned.

Edited May 11, 2023 by connick159

[ProDave]

It is beginning to sound like he is a mate rather than a real sparky.  Lets hope he actually knows how to connect up the other ends?

 

I am sure the CU's you have can be reconfigured.  If asked I would put all the big loads on the top CU and have the bottom one fed by one MCB in the top one as a submain and use that as an overflow for the small load circuits.  That would avoid the dodgy 2 sets of tails in one terminal.

 

I hope he has not actually charged you much for his efforts?

 

 

[elite]

I'm happy with my Fusebox double decker, think that was about £150 for the bare board, but as @ProDave says the existing CUs can probably be used. Hager are certianly well regarded boards

[connick159]

16 hours ago, ProDave said:

If asked I would put all the big loads on the top CU and have the bottom one fed by one MCB in the top one as a submain.... That would avoid the dodgy 2 sets of tails in one terminal.

 i see what you mean. thanks. Would that MCB need to be right at the end of the line in the top board and then give the live into the main switch of the bottom board?

 

I've confirmed another co to come next Tuesday but the fear is they then tell me they can do it but are booked solid for 2 months.

 

I've told my mate I want the armored coming into the CU on the RH side so that everything can then go back to the default setup that the box actually ships with. i.e. the main switch on the RH side.

[joe90]

16 hours ago, connick159 said:

I'll then go and punch my other mate in the head who told me to use him.

🤣 it’s a shame this happened but shit happens I guess, I am sure he meant well, I was trained many years ago but admit I do not know the current regs so apart from simple things I don’t go near other stuff (I ask @ProDave 🥳), shame he moved to haggis land.

[ProDave]

54 minutes ago, connick159 said:

 i see what you mean. thanks. Would that MCB need to be right at the end of the line in the top board and then give the live into the main switch of the bottom board?

 

I've confirmed another co to come next Tuesday but the fear is they then tell me they can do it but are booked solid for 2 months.

 

I've told my mate I want the armored coming into the CU on the RH side so that everything can then go back to the default setup that the box actually ships with. i.e. the main switch on the RH side.

I would try and reconfigure it as a "high integrity" board so the one MCB feeding the bottom board does not have RCD protection, that would be provided in the bottom board.  It's nearly there with the 3 neutral bars, you would need one extra L jumper to do that, I keep a collection of spare CU bits that would probably yield something.

[connick159]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

I would try and reconfigure it as a "high integrity" board so the one MCB feeding the bottom board does not have RCD protection, that would be provided in the bottom board.  It's nearly there with the 3 neutral bars, you would need one extra L jumper to do that, I keep a collection of spare CU bits that would probably yield something.

Something like this you mean?

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4780707-10-14-dual-row-dual-rcd-high-integrity-metal-clad-consumer-unit-with-spd?gclid=CjwKCAjwx_eiBhBGEiwA15gLN1B9KDl4I_EtiEt87vcTFCDU1e_1h0pahuWpq-aWnoGrbOvtP0dfSxoCCtkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

Would you then also use rcbos as well?

Edited May 12, 2023 by connick159

[connick159]

49 minutes ago, connick159 said:

Something like this you mean?

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4780707-10-14-dual-row-dual-rcd-high-integrity-metal-clad-consumer-unit-with-spd?gclid=CjwKCAjwx_eiBhBGEiwA15gLN1B9KDl4I_EtiEt87vcTFCDU1e_1h0pahuWpq-aWnoGrbOvtP0dfSxoCCtkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

Would you then also use rcbos as well?

 

sorry but can you give more info on what an L jumper is?

 

Also, in the link above to the Hager high integrity unit, it seems to have the main switch down the bottom row so I assume then power from the armoured cable would have to go to that one first. Not sure how it would reach to that incoming point as looks to be already cut for top board and won't reach. Perhaps just reverse the pic and have the main switch and surge protector up top?

Thanks again. still planning on getting some one else in but as I've come this far I now want to know these things. Wish I was still ignorant to it all as that would mean the job was done and we'd fully moved in!

[ProDave]

L jumper Live Jumper.

 

This page explains it well  https://www.consumerunitworld.co.uk/what-is-a-high-integrity-consumer-unit-and-how-to-populate-it-331-c.asp

 

You already have the high integrity neutral configuration with the 3 neutral bars.  you just need to space it out as shown on that page.

 

The "High integrity" circuit (just one in this case) will be a single MCB right next to the main switch, so you need just a 2 prong busbar to link the L out of the main switch to this single MCB.  That will be the one that feeds to the bottom CU.

 

Then the 2 RCD's each have a multi prong busbar feeding their MCB's.

 

The bottom CU could have an RCD after it's main switch (or even instead of) or a row or rcbo's.

 

Picture from that linked site: