Council Tax Blow!

[richo106]

Hi All

 

We have just received a letter saying we owe £15k in council tax! Obviously this is an unexpected blow but I’ve read up and think we owe it.

 

we bought a property June 2021 which has been empty since 2009. We started paying the council tax at normal rate (£300ish a month) and have been ever since and thought nothing of it.

 

Yesterday we received a letter from the Council saying we should of been 300% empty homes premium which makes our council tax £12.5k a year while it’s empty.

 

as we have took the roof off could I argue that it should of been taken off by the VOA? When speaking to a representative from the council couple of months a go they mentioned requesting deletion from the VOA. Is this something I could push for?

 

The letter was dated 15.12.22 but only just received this due to the postal strikes and it reads like almost £12k will be taken out my account on the 03.01.22. If this defaults I don’t want it to affect my credit rating.

 

Obviously I’m gutted but come to the realisation that I will probably have to pay it and then pay it for the next 10/11 months while the work is being done. Is there any way to argue this? Or find a better outcome for us?

 

all help appreciated

 

Many Thanks 

Edited December 31, 2022 by richo106

[Chanmenie]

I thought you only paid extra if its empty for more than 2 years

Edited December 31, 2022 by Chanmenie

[ToughButterCup]

You meant  3rd of January 2023 dintcha?

Make an offer to pay at - to you - an acceptable monthly amount. I think they cannot refuse: stress -think-. Ring them straight away on Tuesday (if they are open)

[richo106]

27 minutes ago, Chanmenie said:

I thought you only paid extra if its empty for more than 2 years

Been empty for over 10 years now

[richo106]

27 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

You meant  3rd of January 2023 dintcha?

Make an offer to pay at - to you - an acceptable monthly amount. I think they cannot refuse: stress -think-. Ring them straight away on Tuesday (if they are open)

Yup meant 2023.

I will do!

[Seren161]

54 minutes ago, richo106 said:

Been empty for over 10 years now

But surely your liability for the council tax only started when you purchased the property in which case your 2 year empty tax premium only starts from after you have owned the property for two years?
Also what is the state of repair or disrepair of the property.. there are exemptions to this premium if the property is not “ habitable or in need of structural repair etc” .. varies from council to council but especially in these days of working from home.. they might ask you to send proof of the disrepair and then give you a period in which to make the property habitable…

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Seren161

[joe90]

4 minutes ago, Seren161 said:

varies from council to council

You need to read the fine print on your local councils terms etc on council tax, they are all different.

[Seren161]

If your property needs, is undergoing or has undergone major repair or structural alterations to make it habitable, you may get a 100% discount on your Council Tax for up to twelve months. 

We can only award a maximum of twelve months discount. If after twelve months the property remains empty and unfurnished, Council Tax will be payable. Depending on the time the property has been empty a premium charge may be incurred. 

To enable the discount to be awarded, the property must be unoccupied and unfurnished; AND  requires or is undergoing major repair works (which include structural repair works) to render it habitable; or It is undergoing structural alteration; or It has undergone major repair works to render it habitable and less than six months have elapsed since the work was substantially completed and it has remained vacant since that date.

Substantially unfurnished

Substantially unfurnished is defined as a property where sufficient furniture has been removed to leave the property incapable of occupation.  As a minimum, beds, chairs, tables, wardrobes, cabinets, televisions and personal effects would be expected to be removed.

Major repair works

The work required is such, that unless the work is carried out, the property will not be fit to live in.  The property must be uninhabitable before any work starts.

Structural alteration

A change to the fabric of the property which should prevent occupation of the property.  Anything that alters a load bearing surface that is supporting something greater than its own weight or alteration or removal of a supporting, load bearing wall.

Works that could qualify for this discount

• Structural repairs to the main structure of the property, i.e. major roof repairs, replacing defective solid floor/ceiling joists and rebuilding internal/external walls.
• Major electrical re-wiring.
• Major re-plumbing.
• Walls being removed.
• Underpinning due to subsidence.
• Replacement of kitchen and/or bathroom together with other works.
• A considerable amount of work to render the property habitable with substantial cost of repairs.

Works that would not qualify for this discount (they are not considered major repair work on their own, but a combination of them might be)

• General refurbishment and modernisation, such as replacing just a kitchen and bathroom.
• New heating including repairs and renewals of services.
• Replacement/repairs of bathroom and kitchen or any other fitting/fixtures.
• Timber or damp proof treatments.
• Re-plastering and redecoration in between tenancies.
• Repointing or window/door replacement.
• Minor alterations to the structure such as roof windows.

It is to be noted that consideration can be given to awarding a discount where lots of repair works are being carried out. This would come under “A considerable amount of work to render the property habitable together with substantial cost of repairs”.

 

Might be different for your local council but worth investigating… £12.5k is a lot of money…

[nod]

Slightly different but same principle 

We received a large demand for our previous build Even though we had no power water Or even stairs 

We did exactly as Ian suggests 

and made an offer to pay a small amount that was due and start paying the full CS 

They quickly accepted 

[JohnMo]

Also note what @Seren161 say about timings.  We were similar also, but house had no water, heating, kitchen bathrooms etc.  So was not habitable.  We managed to finish it within the year so started paying full tax at end of year 1.  You should only be due the extra tax from June 22.  So 6 month worth.

 

I Would 'move in' so to speak, either, you wife or kids, so as not to pay the surcharge.

[Temp]

You are obviously only liable from date of purchase.

When did you take the roof off?

 

I would offer to pay 300% from date of purchase to date roof was removed and it became uninhabitable.

 

LESS the £300 pcm from the date it became uninhabitable.

 

But first check with the rate is for an uninhabitable property and the definition of that.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Temp

[Chanmenie]

3 hours ago, richo106 said:

Been empty for over 10 years now

But surely you are not responsible for the years prior to you purchasing it 

[Kelvin]

5 minutes ago, Chanmenie said:

But surely you are not responsible for the years prior to you purchasing it 

Do the sums. £300/month since 2021 with a 300% uplift due to it being empty. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Kelvin

[Chanmenie]

26 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Do the sums. £300/month since 2021 with a 300% uplift due to it being empty. 

Shit the bed, yes I see, how ridiculous that you pay that much for an empty property. 
Would have cost previous owners quite a bit as empty since 2009 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Chanmenie

[Temp]

Perhaps not if the previous owner died?

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, Temp said:

Perhaps not if the previous owner died?

 

The burden passes to whoever inherits the house. 

 

We have two years to sell M&Ds or:

 

"If the property is still unoccupied and unfurnished after two years, 200% Council Tax will be charged. If the property is still unoccupied and unfurnished after five years, 300% Council Tax will be charged. If the property is still unoccupied and unfurnished after ten years, 400% Council Tax will be charged".

[Temp]

3 hours ago, Onoff said:

The burden passes to whoever inherits the house. 

 

My Aunt died about a year ago and the executors are still dealing with the estate which includes selling the flat. I believe they have been given an exemption until the flat is sold.

[Seren161]

I had a similar situation but only got the premium AFTER I had owned the property and left it empty for 2 years from purchase and then I invited them to visit the property..It was declared uninhabitable and I was given 12 mths to make it habitable. Possibly one of the more lenient councils as this was relatively straightforward …so then managed to renovate the property and it’s back in normal occupancy so council happy.

[Chanmenie]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

The burden passes to whoever inherits the house. 

 

We have two years to sell M&Ds or:

 

"If the property is still unoccupied and unfurnished after two years, 200% Council Tax will be charged. If the property is still unoccupied and unfurnished after five years, 300% Council Tax will be charged. If the property is still unoccupied and unfurnished after ten years, 400% Council Tax will be charged".

That’s what I read on the .gov site so it’s standard rate for two years then it increases so where do they get the 300% and £15k from ? 

[Adsibob]

@Seren161is right. There are lots of ways of saying a house is not habitable, particularly if you had no roof!

You’ve been there for 18 months. I assume if it wasn’t habited for the 12 years prior to your purchase, it would have been in quite a mess. If that assumption is right, then gather all the documentary evidence you have (e.g. surveyor’s report, estate agent’s particulars, all paperwork related to your roofing (and any other works) that supports your argument that the place was not habitable for a number of months and send it to the council, and demand the 200% difference between the 300% premium they have charged you and the 100% you sold have paid, be credited to your account.

 

if they have charged you 3 x 300 for the 18 months since you moved in, a chunk of that time it was legally considered uninhabitable, then you are entitled to a chunk of that back.

 

I had a similar issue when I sold a flat that was empty and had no furniture in it. I was charged c tax for a few months, but managed to get a month knocked off by sending the c tax dept paperwork relating to the sale of my furniture to support my position that it had no furniture. Objectively speaking, I don’t think my papers were particularly probative. But they are not lawyers, they don’t have the time to fight. They just need enough to justify their decision (to their manager, not to a court). So keep fighting.

 

 And if you can get through to your bank on Sunday or a bank holiday Monday, you should cancel your direct debit. That won’t affect your credit rating. You have a dispute with your council as to the amount due and are entitled to withhold payment until it is resolved. If the council were to get a County Court Judgment against you and that is not paid or set aside by you within the relevant time, then that will raise a red flag with the credit files. But you didn’t mention a CCJ so I’m assuming it hasn’t gone that far . (They would noted to notify you that you were being taken to Court and you would have the right to be heard at the trial, before the judge could make a judgment.)

[richo106]

Thank you all for your replies. As you can imagine I have been thinking about it quite a lot. 
 

I have been over our council website a few times (Rushcliffe) and there is no mention of anything to do with uninhabitable only unfurnished (see screen shot attached)

 

however on the form it says empty house premium not unfurnished. However it was furnished when we bought it (albeit it not been used in 12 years)

 

I cant find anywhere where it says this carries on between owners but I presume it does 

 

I think the only chance I have is to get the VOA to delete the property from July 22 where I have photo graphic evidence with the roof off and then have to pay 13 months at 400%!🙈

 

But I have evidence that the property is not livable from July 2021 but still has a roof.

 

Could my conveyances offer legal advice on council tax matters? Was thinking of trying to speak to someone else first before speaking to my council and potentially dropping myself in it

They have not tried to take any money yet but it looks like they will try to on the 3rd. As mentioned concerned it will effect my credit going forward

 

Thanks again

Edited January 1, 2023 by richo106

[richo106]

[Adsibob]

2 hours ago, richo106 said:

As mentioned concerned it will effect my credit going forward

Can you explain what your concern is. Will them taking the money put your amount into overdraft? Or are you worried about the consequences of cancelling the direct debit? If the latter, please see my response above.l; you are perfectly entitled to cancel the direct debit.

[Adsibob]

2 hours ago, richo106 said:

Could my conveyances offer legal advice on council tax matters?

Most conveyancers are barely competent at advising on conveyancing. Wouldn’t ask them about anything else. 
 

Ultimately, although many aspects of the rules vary council to council, there are rules which apply nationwide, regardless of where you live.

 

 This is from gov.uk, it applies nationwide, even in Rushcliffe:

 

If your property’s derelict

Your property’s only considered derelict if it:

• is not possible to live in it, for example because it’s been damaged by weather, rot or vandalism
• would need major structural works to make it ‘wind and watertight’ again

You can challenge your Council Tax band if you think a derelict property should be removed from the Council Tax valuation list.

 

 

 So I think you should challenge the council and claim that it should have been removed from the valuation list for the time it was uninhabitable as a result of being derelict.

[ProDave]

13 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

If your property’s derelict

Your property’s only considered derelict if it:

• is not possible to live in it, for example because it’s been damaged by weather, rot or vandalism
• would need major structural works to make it ‘wind and watertight’ again

You can challenge your Council Tax band if you think a derelict property should be removed from the Council Tax valuation list.

 

 

 So I think you should challenge the council and claim that it should have been removed from the valuation list for the time it was uninhabitable as a result of being derelict.

Definitely do this, backdated to the date you took the roof off.

 

It would be poetic justice if the greedy council that is trying to fleece you then got nothing, rather than the 100% council tax you were happy to pay up to the point they got greedy.