How feasable.. Floor Job.

[zoothorn]

22 minutes ago, j_s said:

As per @PeterW said and then maybe a curtain at the bottom of the stairs too? A bit clutter-y but could help with making the lounge less of an ice box and a relatively cheap test compared to digging up the floor?

Hi there j_s, not sure I've had a post from you before.. thanks.

 

I have added a thickish curtain across the stairwell, which helps as much as closing upstairs bed doors, ie a bit. But the 'back' of the stairs.. isn't able to be covered still. So it's a barrier, with a bloomin big compromised whole side to it.

 

These ideas aren't likely to be -compared- to digging up the floor, as simply my feeling being the vast majority is rising up via floor. But just things I -have- to do, if nothing else just to rule out these other factors being a significant factor. The only one I think could, conceivably be letting any significant ammount of cold in, in the grand scheme of things, is this stairwell ceiling. 
 

But I could of course, go ahead & remove it for eg, just to find a thick layer of fluff behind.. scuppering the whole idea. I can't do a test hole here.

 

 

[zoothorn]

@Onoff does your place often feel colder inside than out like mine does? We're in the same boat. I guess easier being one here in one way, ie I could suddenly create havoc if I choose to. And I don't have a cold grumpy partner to deal with (not saying yours is).

 

Today, my WC temp's a potty ( another of my puns..) 10.6*C. But I can -still- see my breath?!! It's like the house refuses to act anything but veryfkncold, even if it's a balmy 10*C inside.

 

My house is an utter @sshole. My arthritis isn't being helped by it that's for sure.. freezing finger right now jabbing at my ipad.

[Spreadsheetman]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Hi Peter, understand.. but how much PIR would you say minimum though doing this?

 

It's a smallish cottage you see, every inch of room counts type thing.

50mm of PIR then plasterboard will probably drop the u value from a bit over 3 (if it really is un-insulated) to 0.38. That would make a big difference and only lose 65mm or so.

[j_s]

@zoothorn I had a vague recollection you may have mentioned the curtained off area before. IR thermometer on the ceiling or borrow a thermal camera to know once and for all where all the cold areas actually are rather than guess work?

[markc]

A cheap laser thermometer would give you loads of info and pinpoint where the cold spots are. Get one, draw a sketch  of the house and go around noting the temps (try to do them all within a short time) and post them on here.

@j_s bet me to it

Edited December 22, 2022 by markc

[Pocster]

15 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

@Onoff does your place often feel colder inside than out like mine does? We're

 

Yeah because he has no (expletive deleted)ing heating 🤣

[Onoff]

24 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@Onoff does your place often feel colder inside than out like mine does?

 

Yes. In particular the most insulated rooms feel much colder in Summer. It's a pretty good indicator of the value of insulation, it works both ways. 

 

The study is insulated, walls, floor and ceilings. It has one small radiator. It is the warmest room in the house. However it has just an open doorway/arch so your feet can feel cold due to the draughts. We've put a curtain across it. It often gets too warm. 

 

The "new" bathroom is cool in Summer and near freezing in Winter.

 

Biggest issue is I've multiple ceiling penetrations. When they are sorted, even without heating I have high hopes for it being much better as it'll be a near airtight, insulated envelope around it. 

[Onoff]

The pub is the same. Solid flint walls about 500mm thick. Always cool in the Summer.

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, Onoff said:

The pub is the same. Solid flint walls about 500mm thick. Always cool in the Summer.

Ah yes cool in summer is one thing, but the opposite of what's on the agenda here: it's only winter on the agenda. A good room does both/ cool in summer, warm in winter. My stone main part of the house is exactly half of this. 
 

The summer benefit side of things is bggr all trade-off though if a (normal UK summer) it's ideal-cool in here only for 3 weeks in july. Vs 20 weeks of not-ideal-cool winter= no trade off at all.

 

It depends on the stone is my view: porous cotswold limestone, can get warm fast, & become a good insulator. Slate out here, or granite (eg Edinburgh, scots old houses)= a flamin nightmare.

[zoothorn]

36 minutes ago, j_s said:

@zoothorn I had a vague recollection you may have mentioned the curtained off area before. IR thermometer on the ceiling or borrow a thermal camera to know once and for all where all the cold areas actually are rather than guess work?

Aha well I've no chance to borrow one, I don't know anyone in the bloomin country let alone someone who might have such a device. But I'll look into buying, or renting if I can.

 

But I am just working on logic though- if there's no insulation behind ceiling, & roof as per my sketch so close above.. this just HAS to be a cold ingress area. Especially so if my Hifi is in the mainroom, but under stairs, & drawing a bit of the thickish curtain to nip & change an Lp side asap, I notice it's always permanently terribly cold here ( I do as fast as poss.. then return to a cold sofa/ it'll have got cold in the 1 min this took).
 

But I -am- just assuming there IS no loft fluff behind the ceiling pB here. Put your hand on it.. sure feels awfully cold.

 

Thanks j_s

[Onoff]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ah yes cool in summer is one thing, but the opposite of what's on the agenda here

 

Other side of the coin, same coin. Good insulation works to keep heat in as well as out. If you've an already cold room that's well insulated it'll stay cold. Put some heat in there and it should warm up quicker and lose heat slower than an uninsulated room.

[TonyT]

https://insulation4less.co.uk/collections/insulated-plasterboard
 

or you could buy insulation separate from the plasterboard.

 

but you get the idea.

[dpmiller]

IR thermometers aren't dear. eg-

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Infrared-Thermometer-Helect-Non-contact-Digital/dp/B071NBJJ2Q/ref=sr_1_28?crid=XIQA3RQD1FCO&keywords=ir+thermometer&qid=1671729727

 

 

[Onoff]

Tight git! Around a tenner on eBay.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265214398973?

Edited December 22, 2022 by Onoff

[zoothorn]

Here is the mainroom stone 'shell' circa 1965. The far privvy is an addition ( long since gone). This gives a good idea of the 1 big'ish main room.
 

Onto that far end, is my 1 story extension (80's? kitchen, WC).

 

Onto above: this old roof gone, & a 1970's (?) extention added.

 

Onto front: porch addition (80's?).

 

Onto near 'dark' side: 2019 2-story extention, 1 room each.

 

Zooter

 

 

[TonyT]

 

 

https://www.heat-engineer.com/

 

spend £10  for a one off report and fill in the info on your whole house, sizes, window, radiators, etc to get a heat loss calculation and start to base your improvements on data.

[Caddy]

@zoothorn Reading this thread is like reading a diary of my life 😄 Our situations are so similar its almost comical.

 

I live in very old stone cottage in Somerset, no CH just a 5kW stove. I've never had the living room over 16°C and that was me sat in front of the fire for hours pouring in wood. My house is in the winter almost always colder inside than the outside temp, sometimes by over 7°C difference.  During the cold spell before Christmas it was 3.5°C in the living room and a mighty 6/7°C upstairs in my office

 

My floors are stone flags skimmed over with concrete and my house also sits in a stream 😄 My 500mm thick walls are white Lias instead of slate, but with the obligatory slate roof. I have wall mounted convection heaters in each bedroom but I'm from Yorkshire and never turn them on 'cos I'm tighter than a ducks....

I heavily insulated the loft area and the first time I had a bath the sloped ceilings like yours became instantly covered in condensation. This section of the roof that is not accessible from the loft is obviously not insulated and is the new coldest point in the house. I too have to decide whether to rip out the PB and insulate and replace or just go over the top with some insulated PB.

 

Since I've lived here I've been looking at how to improve the heating situation and the floor has been one of my big considerations. Watching TV on an evening my feet would be warmer if I was sat with them in the stream. The only real option seems to be to dig it up and insulate. But to do all that and not put in UFH at the same time would seem crazy wasteful. The problem is to fit a heat pump with UFH in a house with solid floors and no existing wet heating system is very expensive. I've had several quotes for fitting just the heat pump and rads at ~£20,000 (£15,000 minus grant). Adding underfloor heating would be several thousand more on top. As someone mentioned earlier I have thought of insulating the floor and adding the pipes but not connecting to a heat pump. Get the benefit of the insulation and have the option of UFH sometime in the future.

 

One of my other problems with an air to water heat pump is that I have nowhere to put all the equipment that is needed inside. I have a small half height airing cupboard in the bathroom and that’s it. I would have to sacrifice my downstairs toilet and maybe turn it into a small plant room. Because of this I have been looking at air to air heat pumps (air con) and I think this is the route I'm going. Quotes for this have come in around the £6,000 mark and it seems a lot less destructive to my house. I would still like to insulate the floor as I'm worried I'd have warm air in the rooms but still have freezing cold feet, with the floor trying to suck the heat out of the room.

 

Sorry for the long post but your situation is so similar to mine I could not help but laugh. Hope your journey to a warmer floor is successful and I will watch with interest.

[Caddy]

On 22/12/2022 at 17:31, TonyT said:

 

 

https://www.heat-engineer.com/

 

spend £10  for a one off report and fill in the info on your whole house, sizes, window, radiators, etc to get a heat loss calculation and start to base your improvements on data.

I came across this thread doing a search for heat-engineer.com to see if anyone had used it. Worth the £10 then @TonyT

[PeterW]

20 minutes ago, Caddy said:

I've had several quotes for fitting just the heat pump and rads at ~£20,000 (£15,000 minus grant). Adding underfloor heating would be several thousand more on top.

Those numbers are bonkers unless this is a 250sqm ground floor cottage !! How many rooms etc do you have ..? Floor plan would be helpful. 

[Caddy]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Those numbers are bonkers unless this is a 250sqm ground floor cottage !! How many rooms etc do you have ..? Floor plan would be helpful. 

60m² total lower and upper floor. The £20,000 is the average of 3 quotes so far. Not the equipment that is anymore expensive but the labour of fitting the pipework and converting the toilet into a small plant room. 2 rooms downstairs and 3 rooms upstairs.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Caddy

[Roger440]

12 minutes ago, Caddy said:

60m² total lower and upper floor. The £20,000 is the average of 3 quotes so far. Not the equipment that is anymore expensive but the labour of fitting the pipework and converting the toilet into a small plant room. 2 rooms downstairs and 3 rooms upstairs.

 

Thats still bonkers!

 

If you do the floor, adding a UFH loop is pennies extra, UFH pipe is cheap. All you need is this: https://www.ufhtradedirect.co.uk/multi-zone-warm-water-kits/358-623-emmeti-2-port-x-100-metre-kit.html#/57-thermostats-hetta_programmable_thermostat_000

 

Make sure its pressurised when the floor is laid though!

 

I did that bit myself when i had the floor done. If its old with no DPC, id strongly suggest NOT using a modern DPM under with PIR/EPS etc. Likely to caiuse you more damp issues. Damp walls = cold walls (you dont mention that?)

 

I used the foamed glass under the slab. Should ensure a reduction in moisture getting to walls, plus insulate and act as the foundantion layer at the sime time, so a thinner build up. You dont want to disturn the foundations on this by digging down to far.

 

Again i stripped out the floor, dug down a bit and prepared ut myself. Then the chaps came in and put the foamed glass down. With hindsight, i could easily have done that myself. Then i put the pipes down. Then they came back and laid the floor.

 

In my case it was connected to my existing heating circuit (oil)

 

All that said, you need to insulate the roof first, an, i suspect your walls are wet, so will suck heat like nothing else. Whats the humidity levels in the house?

[PeterW]

So for digging out a 60sqm floor and relaying it you’re being quoted £6k or thereabouts by my calculations …  For a weeks work for 2 guys..?? 
 

I’m in the wrong job..!

 

TBH you will get away with not needing a buffer tank here as the UFH in the slab will need a lot of heat off an ASHP -  it will just bleed heat until you start to dry out the fabric and get to some sort of equilibrium. A standard monoblock heat pump needs nothing inside - only query would be about hot water ..? 
 

A2A isn’t that expensive either if you are going with a unit for upstairs and one for down but if you’re going full splits etc it can get pricey plus it needs more wiring and pipework than is first considered. 
 

Another option with this sort of building is a pellet range cooker - they give a constant low heat and can be surprisingly efficient if you have the space. They aren’t cheap but do qualify for some of the renewables grants 

 

https://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Klover-Traditional-Smart-120-wood-pellet-boiler-stove.html

[ash_scotland88]

Coming back to this thread I'd recommend anyone looking at improving a small cottage to read up on Downies Cottage.

https://www.historicenvironment.scot/archives-and-research/publications/publication/?publicationId=134ef4b1-90e5-4dcc-b1da-a6dc00a9b4ee

 

 

Google will provide more results once past the holiday listing website.

And absolute beauty of a property wonderfully modernised and improved while still keeping all its charm.

 

[saveasteading]

Skim read it. Fascinating and useful.

[mgo]

such a lot of info here, my wonder is do you always need to break up the old concrete floor?

 

If you have enough headroom, what could be the disavantage to just add a layer of PIR insulation on top of the old concrete, add UFH and level off with screed. Leaving out DPM all together when the original cement floor is not damp.

 

I am in the same situation (assuming no insulation / DPM currently under current old cement floor), and am looking into installing it this way, rather than opening up and excavating all excisting flooring.