Are we mad to project manage ourselves?

[SarahG]

I know there are a lot of threads on this already and everyone has their own specifics! However..

 

Having previously been against Project Managing the build ourselves I am now wondering if we should go this route.

 

My concerns are that we don't have specific experience in the building trade.  Whilst we are capable of checking quality of workmanship for brickwork, roof tiles, plastering etc I am not sure if we would be happy to sign off on construction works for foundations, insulation, roof trusses and things like that.  I realise that BCO will check some of this and we plan to do an air test when we are water tight.- is there another professional we can pay to come in and check works at each stage?

[PeterW]

A PM should not be signing that sort of stuff anyway - your BCO should confirm it meets BRegs but maybe worth paying a structural engineer to validate this sort of stuff if you don’t feel confident. 

[Carrerahill]

44 minutes ago, SarahG said:

I know there are a lot of threads on this already and everyone has their own specifics! However..

 

Having previously been against Project Managing the build ourselves I am now wondering if we should go this route.

 

My concerns are that we don't have specific experience in the building trade.  Whilst we are capable of checking quality of workmanship for brickwork, roof tiles, plastering etc I am not sure if we would be happy to sign off on construction works for foundations, insulation, roof trusses and things like that.  I realise that BCO will check some of this and we plan to do an air test when we are water tight.- is there another professional we can pay to come in and check works at each stage?

If you do not have a good to excellent understanding of the building process and the industry - yes you are mad. 

 

BCO is not there to check your build goes to plan, they may not even show up till the end. They just look at compliance and will not really do what I think you think they may be doing. They might just see a concrete found and go, yup that looks fine (like a recent build of mine) but no check or rebar, depth, didn't even ask for a concrete delivery note to prove mix and volume. It could have been 50mm deep!

 

Speaking to a consultant engineer(s) is a good idea, structural to start then M&E - agree X no. of 1/2 day visits and reports and I think you will be sorted. 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Carrerahill

[Thorfun]

I wouldn't worry about the lack of building experience as @PeterW says, BCO will check that stuff and what they don't check you'll pick up on pretty quickly.

 

I would be more concerned about the amount of time it consumes! it's very much a full time role. researching, purchasing, ordering, planning and so on and all very much in advance of when you might actually need it. It's not easy but it is very rewarding. it will also save a ton of money on materials (as the main contractor won't put their 20% on top of all of the materials) and also allow you to shop around.

 

it's not easy but is definitely do-able.

[Moonshine]

7 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

it's not easy but is definitely do-able

i am doing this, its hard, stressful and takes its toll.

 

It can be very rewarding when things go to plan and get done, i am at the moment actively coordinating 4 different trades getting pre plaster stage ready (5th trade) and its a handful, but most of those trades are good guys to work with and its very much a collaborative effort. 

 

However if you don't have building experience i would be a bit wary. What about someone else project manages to water tight stage and you take it on from there?

 

I have an architect overseeing the build from a PCC (practical completion certificate) and they are much more involved than the BCO.

[Kelvin]

Ours is a timber kit. I am taking responsibility for the groundworks with a very good groundworks company and they are doing the timber kit to weathertight then handing back to me for the rest of it. I feel more comfortable PMing it that way. But don’t underestimate the time it takes. It consumes a few hours a day for me and we’ve yet to start. 

[Adsibob]

I am PM'ed our project myself, with assistance from our architect whom I paid on an hourly rate to help out with PM as and when I needed him.
My main job was ordering hundreds upon hundreds of things, sorting out returns, chasing late items, liaising with third party contractors and photographing things to send to my architect for his confirmation that it looked right. On simpler items I also checked my builder's work myself and gave him instructions when he didn't have any, but on the whole I was lucky that his workmanship was so good it didn't really need that much checking. I found it extremely time consuming and at times very very stressful, but I think this was because I was holding down a full time job at the same time, so I was regularly pulling 18 hour days trying to juggle both jobs. I was also completely gutting an existing 100 year old house and the rebuilding it as modern as possible. This was probably harder than a new build where you are building everything from scratch and aren't constrained by existing things, like the position of the sewage pipes, the electrical supply and the weird roof trusses the original builder erected 100 years ago.

 

If i had my time again, I would have spent more on project management, but hindsight was not available at the time.

 

The only thing the BCO did prior to completion was check the depths of our trenches for the foundations and require them to be made deeper at points before the concrete was poured in. He also raised a few issues with our drainage.

 

There were a couple of structural bits I asked my structural engineer to check, but hardly anything. Depends how much you trust your main builder.

[BadgerBadger]

How are planning to structure your project? Single contractor all the way, part of the way, splitting everything to individual trades?

 

PM'ing a build means different things to different people, and the level of involvement needed for different approaches varies massively.

 

We have ending up falling more towards the individual trades end of the spectrum, and the technical involvement has ramped dramatically.

[Buzz]

1 hour ago, SarahG said:

Having previously been against Project Managing the build ourselves I am now wondering if we should go this route.

If you were against having a Project Manager at the beginning what's changed your mind? there are pros and cons for both sides of the argument. 

[Bitpipe]

We did it with no prior experience but we were using one main contractor to demolish existing, excavate and construct a basement and lay services and then a second to build a passive timber frame with all internal floors, walls etc.

 

This massively simplified and de-risked the project but it still required a lot of time to source and co-ordinate windows & external doors, roofing, cladding plus all the internal services and finishes.

 

We also had the advantage of building more or less same time and in same area as a few others on this forum (we used same TF company) so were able to share research on trades, suppliers etc.

 

Other major advantage was that we lived on site (caravan) and I worked from home so was usually always here to keep an eye on things or be called on to make a decision. Private BCO visited for the key milestones and was helpful in telling me what I needed to provide him to get sign off.

 

We achieved a lot on the budget and I don't think using a professional PM would have done any better or cheaper (we did commission one early on but could not justify his fee).

 

A good costing spreadsheet from a QS is essential, especially when getting quotes from trades and suppliers, ordering bulk materials etc.

[Kelvin]

We got a quote early on for a QS full service so effectively also PMing along with me doing the day to day mgt. £12k all in which I thought a bit ridiculous given it’s a timber kit so all the work up to weather tight is being done by the timber kit company. I think given a choice between a PM and a full QS service I’d go QS. 

[jonM]

I did the research and ordering of all material to ensure quality and good prices. 

I saved a lot of money a long the way but it took a huge amount of time and with a full time job, I was fit to drop by the end of the build. 

All the onsite day to day management and checking of work was done by the builder and architect as I don't have the expertise to do this.  

If you like researching on the internet and have the time then that is something you could do but if you don't have expertise of building, I would employ someone to help you.  

[SarahG]

1 hour ago, Buzz said:

If you were against having a Project Manager at the beginning what's changed your mind? there are pros and cons for both sides of the argument. 

Just concerned about the time and stress that people keep talking about! OH is reasonably knowledgeable in building trade, he comes from a family of builders. Although all retired or doing other things now. We just don’t have any hands on experience working with trades.

 

We will live with family just down the road so it’s easy for us to be on site every day and not too much of a time pressure to complete.
 

I work full time as a Technical Program Manager, and I’m a little obsessed with spreadsheets and researching online so the organising doesn’t really concern me. 

I was chatting to one of my neighbours who PM’d their whole build and it just got me thinking that maybe we could, although they were timber frame which I think makes it easier as the TF complete the structure. They have given me quite a few trade recommendations anyway.
 

All your comments are extremely helpful.

 

I am leaning towards getting a contractor to get us to watertight and then potentially take it from there. I do think we need some help and can’t fully PM on our own.

Edited December 1, 2022 by SarahG

[Kelvin]

The other thing to keep in mind is PMing yourself with individual trades coming to site and you organising all the materials will likely add time to the overall build length so you have to manage time vs budget. Also you buying all the materials yourself and claiming the VAT back vs trades supplying materials (zero rated for VAT) will impact cash flow. Could be crucial if you need a big VAT reclaim at the end to finish off given the stories of 6 months plus for it to be processed. 

[SarahG]

19 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

The other thing to keep in mind is PMing yourself with individual trades coming to site and you organising all the materials will likely add time to the overall build length so you have to manage time vs budget. Also you buying all the materials yourself and claiming the VAT back vs trades supplying materials (zero rated for VAT) will impact cash flow. Could be crucial if you need a big VAT reclaim at the end to finish off given the stories of 6 months plus for it to be processed. 

Yes definitely. Time is not too much of a concern as we can stay with family easily enough.

VAT reclaim is definitely a consideration. I had thought that builders could probably get better rates than an individual? We do have trade accounts at most builders merchants Selco etc. I was thinking more windows and doors which will be a big expense. However, I guess that would be more than offset with the money saved PMing yourself.

Edited December 1, 2022 by SarahG

[Adsibob]

Worth also weighing up how much you will need to spend on therapy to deal with the stress from PMing.

[Kelvin]

25 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Worth also weighing up how much you will need to spend on therapy to deal with the stress from PMing.

😂 I play the guitar and drums so I crank up the distortion and thrash out power chords or beat the crap out of my drum set. 

[BadgerBadger]

Which parts of your build are the most complex? These are the areas that need careful management and where the most potential for cost-saving is.

 

If your shell is straightforward handing it to single contractor may be quite cost-effective, with limited scope to make savings by doing anything else.

 

[BadgerBadger]

5 hours ago, SarahG said:

I had thought that builders could probably get better rates than an individual?

I've concluded this is a bit of a myth.  They can certainly walk into a merchant and get given a better rate straightaway, but if you can work out what the best genuine rate is and then tell them this is all you're willing to pay there's no reason for them to turn you away.

 

Plus, time is money for many builders, so convenience is a key factor as opposed to chasing the lowest possible price.

[SarahG]

1 hour ago, BadgerBadger said:

Which parts of your build are the most complex? These are the areas that need careful management and where the most potential for cost-saving is.

 

If your shell is straightforward handing it to single contractor may be quite cost-effective, with limited scope to make savings by doing anything else.

 

Ok that’s interesting. There isn’t really anything complex, it’s just a straight forward brick and block rectangle plot with a rectangle house. We have some restrictions on bricks, windows and roof tiles we have to comply with as we are in a conservation area, other than that it’s all pretty standard.

 

[eandg]

Re: costs, speak to your merchant about getting your invoices zero-rated (ours has) and in my experience trades are all happy to let me pay for materials directly off their account, getting the benefit of any discounts (which appear variable - e.g. flooring guy says buy online, tiler says we'll save 20-25% on his account) - impression I get is they'd rather not have the cashflow pinch and shouldn't be an issue getting the name changed for invoices where it incurs VAT. 

[Seren161]

Pros: Save a considerable amount of money, Learn on the job, Family of builders means you probably have a few trusted ears to bend with questions, you also have this forum and seemingly decent knowledge base between the two of you. I imagine if you self managed..the sense of accomplishment at the end is pretty amazing…providing you get to the end. It could actually be really really rewarding. 

Cons:  Flipping hard and time consuming and you need to be pretty determined. Tying up your cash in 20 percent vat and waiting for vat reclaim at the end although this is avoidable but not straightforward.

Every thing takes longer even if you are on site.. Learning lots of info that might eventually be useless if you are only planning to build the one house..Life is short.. You sound like you both have jobs..say hello to a third all consuming job.

Best tradesmen are always busy so you are either bottom of their pile as you are not repeat business or you may end up paying more anyways for their attention 

PM’ing as a couple is not for all couples.. ..free falling from a great height would be preferable than PM’ing with my beloved OH and I hate heights. 

 

Perhaps take the middle ground and commission a builder to take you to wall plates or roof and then take over..more doable. 

[Kelvin]

The couple thing is a good point. We’ve made a decision to split up certain tasks. All the PMing and ‘boring’ structural/technical/quotes stuff is me. All the decor/interior/fun stuff isn’t. Every decision is joint though unless we don’t agree then it’s not mine 😂 And there’s a lot of bleedin decisions to make. I’ve been keeping track because I like spreadsheets and we are at 346 so far. 😂 

[Gus Potter]

Great posts from all and fantastic advice.

 

Rule of thumb.. If you are doing your first self build and doing the PM and leg work you can save between 10- 15 % on the build cost copmapred with just getting a builder to do it all for you.

 

Now to get that extra money if you don't PM it you need to earn it and you pay tax on it.. factor that in.

 

The next question is.. will it be less risky financially to do over time at work / concentrate on my carreer?

 

Also equate the pleasure / self satisfaction you may get from having more control over the build as that has a value, although undefined.

 

Lastly ask yourself how do I cope with risk and uncertainty.. that is really personal but some folk can and some don't do so well.

 

I'm sure you have already asked yourself these questions but some folk don't.

 

That said it can be a great journey but there are ups and downs along the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

@SarahG

Ask yourself what you don’t know, and what stage you’d be comfortable being fully in charge of a construction project, and then have a reality check.

Loads of people keep reasonably quiet about the adversities, negatives, stress and losses from what they thought would be a, seemingly, easily manageable undertaking. 
 

There are others who micro-manage everything in life, and have the time to do so. Some who are naturally ‘managerial’, regardless of the pursuit, and who will come off better simply due to a huge investment in time / research. They’re usually self employed, semi or fully retired etc, and have this time. Others don’t / aren’t and have to use the gaps in between, and hope that time is suffice. The sacrifice is personal / family life and sanity, and when they get compromised so do you. 
And that’s if it’s all going well…….

 

Choose a very good general builder and get out of the way up until weathertight, then at that stage see how you feel you’ve coped as a passenger. At weathertight you can relax a bit, bank would have released more funds, if you’re borrowing, and you can pause for thought to plan the final push with fit and finish both inside and out.

Much less stress and far less consequences if you make simple faux pas here and there, by comparison, vs what trouble you could get into getting the shell up. 
Assume nothing, check EVERYTHING, as you will be the only truly diligent person(s) on your build.