Combimate water "softener"—opinions?

[Dreadnaught]

Could the tubes be blinded, labelled only A and B with only Nick knowing which is which?

Edited August 11, 2018 by Dreadnaught

[HerbJ]

15 hours ago, richi said:

I believe that what they mean by "softer" is actually "lower surface tension." But the data they present are all over the shop and don't seem to show a significant reduction (and definitely not the "dramatic" reduction claimed).

 

 From Wikipedia - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_water

"Soft water is surface water that contains low concentrations of ions and in particular is low in ions of calcium and magnesium. Soft water naturally occurs where rainfall and the drainage basin of rivers are formed of hard, impervious and calcium poor rocks.^[1] Examples in the UK include Snowdonia in Wales and the Western Highlands in Scotland.

The term may also be used to describe water that has been produced by a water softening process although such water is more correctly termed softened water. In these cases the water may also contain elevated levels of sodium and/or bicarbonate ions .

Because soft water has few calcium ions, there is no inhibition of the lathering action of soaps and no soap scum is formed in normal washing. Similarly, soft water produces no calcium deposits in water heating systems. Water that is not soft is referred to as hard water.

In the UK, water is regarded as soft if the hardness is less than 50 mg/l of calcium carbonate.^[2] Water containing more than 50 mg/l of calcium carbonate is termed hard water. In the United States soft water is classified as having less than 60 mg/l of calcium carbonate.^[3]"

 

So, the results from the proposed testing will  be very interesting!

[Nickfromwales]

Then let science prevail ( or is it chemistry? ) Spent most of my school days on my Honda CR125 ?

Still did well enough in my gcse's to get offered an apprenticeship with two of the industry leaders down here though, much to my teachers amazement ( annoyance more like ✌️). ✅

 

I am on the edge of my chuffing seat. "Let the games commence!" 

[PeterW]

It needs to be double blind, with a control and with a random additional sample. 

 

That could be fun ..!

[jack]

2 hours ago, HerbJ said:

"Soft water is surface water that contains low concentrations of ions and in particular is low in ions of calcium and magnesium. 

 

Based on that definition, then if (if!) there's a precipitate of aragonite, the water will be softer.

[newhome]

16 minutes ago, PeterW said:

It needs to be double blind, with a control and with a random additional sample. 

 

That could be fun ..!

 

Yep, let’s do it! Love an experiment! Needs a sample from @lizzie’s neighbour plus a couple of randoms from around the country to spice it up lol. 

[lizzie]

you dont need my neighbour because my outside water is not on the halcyon and is the same water as neighbour. I can give samples if with and without

[volcane]

This is an extremely interesting discussion, I have been trying to source a water softener for our build and found that all companies, even for softeners that have a sold scientific method of operation all seem to go with a fixed pitch, which includes a salesperson visit and who then will tell you what you wanted. Imagine trying to buy a washing machine with the same approach.

 

I still haven't found a reliable source to supply a softener,

 

I can submit a sample!

[Jeremy Harris]

The three dead easy tests I can do with meters are total hardness, pH and conductivity, plus I can also do a reagent hardness test as well, as confirmation of the hardness level.  There's a limit to the number of reagent tests I can do, and it's important that the samples all be in proper sample bottles, so that there's no contamination.

 

Taking the samples is essentially the same as taking a mid-stream urine sample, with the exception that the water outlet needs to be cleaned first, ideally wiped around with a lint-free cloth and some IPA.  The outlet then needs to be turned on to a slow, steady, flow, allowed to run for a minute or so to expel any water that's been sat in the pipes, then the sample bottle filled whilst the tap is still running.  The bottle needs to be capped as soon as possible and labelled with whatever labelling system we choose to use.

 

I'd suggest a practical limit for testing would be about 6 different samples, otherwise we'll be there forever both testing and cleaning the meters etc after each test.

 

On the topic of the polymorph of CaCO₃ that forms as scale, it's worth noting that scale does not form unless certain conditions are met - so you cannot change metal salts that are fully in solution into different polymorphs, the changes happen when the CaCO₃ comes out of solution as crystals.  That happens on things like windows when the water evaporates, the various metal salts in the water reach saturation point and then start to crystallise out.  It's at that point where the CaCO₃ can form calcite or araganite.

 

[Ferdinand]

What measurement units?

 

Above we have talk of Calcium Carbonate, but for water hardness I am more used to TDS .. Total Dissolved Solids, for which I need a meter costing about £4.14.

 

Could someone clarify.

 

Cheers

 

F

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

IPA

 

Good excuse to get the IPA in ?.

[Jeremy Harris]

2 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

What measurement units?

 

Above we have talk of Calcium Carbonate, but for water hardness I am more used to TDS .. Total Dissolved Solids, for which I need a meter costing about £4.14.

 

Could someone clarify.

 

Cheers

 

F

 

 

 

 

 

I can do both, the meter reads TDS, the reagent test measures hardness in whatever units you wish - there's a translation table.

[HerbJ]

So,  we could arrange for six samples. Maybe, as follows:

2 samples from Lizzie ( outside tap and the Halycan product)

1 sample from Lizzie's neighbour

1 sample from a soft water area ( Wales?)

1 sample from a hard water area 

1 sample of softened water produced from a water softener in   the same hard water area 

 

It would need a little bit of  organising, but nothing that can't be arranged.  When???

[Jeremy Harris]

I already have data from our medium hard water before and after the softener, so perhaps someone who has really hard water, perhaps from the South East where much of the water comes from chalk aquifers.

[newhome]

28 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

perhaps from the South East where much of the water comes from chalk aquifers.

 

I’m headed that way in a couple of days if no one else volunteers. 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by newhome

[HerbJ]

I'm in Berkshire and our water is hard, but not really hard. - 8 or 9 Palintest tablets ( indicating Clake Hardness 21--24) using a standard water hardness test kit -. The softened water is at 1/2 tablets.

Just checked online with my water utility, Affinity Water and they detail the following for my Post Code::

 

HARD WATER
The area supplied by Affinity Water has 'hard' water. The hardness occurs naturally and is characterised by the presence of high levels of calcium and magnesium, which are good for healthy teeth and bones.
CALCIUM	114 mg/l
Calcium is the principal constituent of hardness.
TOTAL HARDNESS	285 mg/l
Total hardness is usually expressed in terms of calcium carbonate and is measured in milligrammes per litre (mg/l) which is the same as parts per million (ppm). The recognised classification scheme we are using is: 0-75 soft, 76-150 moderately hard, 151-300 hard, 300+ very hard. Your water is hard.
Degrees English (or Clarke)	19.95
This hardness measurement is used on some British appliances.
Degrees German	15.96
This is used on some German appliances.
Degrees French	28.5
This is used on some French appliances.
MILLIMOLS	2.85 mmol/l
Millimols per litre. Some appliances refer to water hardness in millimols per litre (mmol/l).
FLUORIDE	0.137375 mg/l
Fluoride naturally occurs in the water in many areas. Affinity Water does not add any fluoride to your water. Fluoride is measured in milligrammes per litre (mg/l).

 

I can send/bring samples if this gives us what we want for "hard water" sample. I 'm happy to assist in organising this.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by HerbJ

[Jeremy Harris]

Your water is similar to mine, @HerbJ.  Ours is around 280 mg/l total hardness before the softener.  Be nice if we can find someone with water over around 300mg/l.

[HerbJ]

i agree. Let's  see if we can get an harder water sample. 

 

For everybody's information, you can normally get an analysis, like the one the above for my Post Code, on your water utility company website.  It's  the results from their regular testing.

 

A water hardness testing kit is available at Screwfiix  https://www.screwfix.com/p/bwt-water-hardness-test-kit/48679?_requestid=331736.  It's a simple kit for checking that your water softener is working satisfactorily.. 

[newhome]

5 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Be nice if we can find someone with water over around 300mg/l.

 

Only 235 where I’m going ... 

 

Only 45 at home. 

 

 

[Construction Channel]

Afaik we have pretty hard water. I’ll see if I can find a way to test it so you can compare how hard it is. 

[newhome]

1 minute ago, Construction Channel said:

Afaik we have pretty hard water. I’ll see if I can find a way to test it so you can compare how hard it is. 

 

You can get an approx value here

[PeterW]

262 here

[newhome]

Just checked bruv’s (going there next Thursday). He’s 345 according to that website if you want me to get that. 

 

 

[Declan52]

I'm 20 and it says my shower head etc won't block up with limescale. Not true it needs done every 4 months so something ain't right!!

[newhome]

29 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

I'm 20 and it says my shower head etc won't block up with limescale. Not true it needs done every 4 months so something ain't right!!

 

I never get limescale at home. It never even registers on those testing kits you get when buying a dishwasher. Mine is 45 according to that site tho.