JonC Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 Hello everyone, My Neighbour has erected a fence and gated off an area formerly shared and used for parking/dustbin storage. Reaching out to see if anyone has a similar experience and how to solve the problem. the land is unregistered and has always been shared between the 4 buildings on the row for parking. New neighbours has arrived and stuck a large fence and gate round the lot and won’t share or grant access. called the police and council who both say it’s a civil matter and won’t do anything about it, not sure where to go with that. I consider it a breach of prescribed easement as it has been used and maintained by all for over 20 years. would really love to just tear it down but think I’d land myself in hot water with a damage claim. ive attached a picture of the area, the bit with the red dot. Thanks in advance Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 To claim adverse possession, he has to have exclusive use. You mention a gate. Keep using the gate to access your dustbin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted October 28, 2022 Author Share Posted October 28, 2022 Thanks Dave, he’s put a massive padlock on it and moved everything out of the area onto the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 Hi. You can go onto the land registry and register an interest to stop them getting it or saying it has been in their possession, for a long time. Essentially they will need exclusuve use, and to fence it for 10 years then they must advertise for the owners to come forward and then wait two further years. So it's a long way off but that does not solve the immediate problem for that you need legal advice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted October 28, 2022 Author Share Posted October 28, 2022 Thanks Mike, I shall look into land registry and registering an interest. Great idea. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 9 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Hi. You can go onto the land registry and register an interest to stop them getting it or saying it has been in their possession, for a long time. Essentially they will need exclusuve use, and to fence it for 10 years then they must advertise for the owners to come forward and then wait two further years. So it's a long way off but that does not solve the immediate problem for that you need legal advice. Thanks Mike. The law in Scotland is a little different but the same principles apply I think. 13 minutes ago, ProDave said: To claim adverse possession, he has to have exclusive use. Ta Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 Google found this.. https://www.lawscot.org.uk/members/journal/issues/vol-66-issue-03/property-access-by-prescription-challenge-of-proof/#:~:text=In Scotland%2C the Prescription and,openly%2C peaceably and without judicial Quote It can, however, be difficult to establish that a prescriptive servitude right of access exists, as it is not only necessary to demonstrate that access has been exercised for the requisite 20 year period, but also that the benefited party has taken access as of right, as opposed to doing so simply because this has been tolerated or permitted by the owners of the neighbouring property. I would contact the council and Highways again them to check who they think owns the land. It might be they consider it to be part of the highway or land maintained at the public expense or some other public land. How high is the fence? Does it need planning permission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 1 hour ago, JonC said: would really love to just tear it down but think I’d land myself in hot water with a damage claim. Unfortunately the fence is his property so yes you could get charged with criminal damage if you take it down. The only other thing I can suggest is to see if you can find who owned the land way back before any houses were built. See if you can trace the owner forward as only they can evict a "squatter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 1 hour ago, JonC said: My Neighbour has erected a fence and gated off an area formerly shared and used for parking/dustbin storage. Hi Jon. Are you in Scotland? It makes a big difference! If you are then there is quite a few levers you can pull before you need to go full legal and incur expense... but you will need to put in a bit of legwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 I am reminded of a possible trick... Tell them you think you have found someone with old deeds that show they/you may own the land. Tell them that you will sell it to them for a nominal £1 to avoid getting reassessed for council tax (or some excuse). Put the offer in writing and tell them if they are interested to send you a letter or email accepting the offer so you can instruct your solicitor to do the paperwork. If they do write to you accepting immediately withdraw your offer. Keep the correspondence because in order to claim ownership in 10/12 years time they have to do so in the belief they own the land. Their offer to buy it from you would be evidence that wasnt the case. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, Gus Potter said: Are you in Scotland? It makes a big difference! That might be my mistake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted October 28, 2022 Author Share Posted October 28, 2022 Some great information here guys, thanks so much. I am in Englandshire, the property is a town centre semi commercial (flats above a cafe. plan of attack so far is, speak to planning, suggest to the a-hole that I’ve located the actual owner, put my own padlock on the gate with a note asking for a conversation about the continued shared use of the area, get the legal cover from insurance to begin litigation for restricting a prescribed easement, investigate registering an interest with land registry (I think I can only do this if it’s a registered property though) really appreciate all of your help and advice so far, teamwork makes the dream work 🙌🏼 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 10 hours ago, JonC said: and has always been shared between the 4 buildings on the row Is your new a hole neighbour one of the four?, can the others confirm it’s continual use/shard access? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 have you looked on land registry to confirm its 'unregistered' all unregistered means is it hasn't been sold since the land reg system was modernized. It will still be owned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 Are there any manholes or chamber lids in the area in question? A utility company might have assets there and they will have a right to access, which could help out. A dial before you dig request will show this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 I'd get a Statement of Truth from the existing users, dated, documenting their use and the period over which it has been used. Make copies for each user - just to spread it around. That will help if anyone moves away, and you find yourself in need of evidence at a later date. If you wanted to you could even get it notarised inexpensively. You can also play proof games such as getting a sealed copy filed with your solicitor etc. There is also stuff around Mitigation of Obstructions, but that risks becoming a touch confrontational. Can you dismantle the fence without damage, or take the gate of its hinges? This is a good question for the Gardenlaw Forums if you need more. Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 (edited) You have a local councillor so speak to them. They will likely talk to highways and planning. The council may then be interested in having the fence removed. At worst you may find that the council or other party claims it is theirs snd you can't use it, but that sounds better than the current grab. Any idea why the neighbour thinks it is theirs? Are there any manholes etc on the area? Edited October 30, 2022 by saveasteading Spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted October 30, 2022 Author Share Posted October 30, 2022 So I’ve reported it to planning, I suppose an email to the local np won’t hurt either. the council have wiped their hands of it and said it’s a civil matter but on advice from this forum I researched planning requirements for fences, turns out if it’s over a meter, close to a footpath or road, in a conservation area or attached to a building with special interest (ours are locally listed) it needs planning permission. Hopefully that will be that and the fence will come down and peace and order will be restored. Maybe…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, JonC said: Hopefully that will be that But will it?, yes the fence will be reduced in height but he will have “land grabbed” which you state you and neighbours have used for years 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 If they reduce the fence to 1m to avoid having to make a planning application I suggest you keep climbing over it to preserve your access rights. You could even consider constructing a community building on the land as only the legal owner can evict you. Lot depends on how many there are of you and how much (lawful) aggrovation you can live with. If things get heated keep calm and call the police. They cannot help with the civil ownership issue but they will deal with potential breach of the peace. They might even persuade the fence owner to remove the fence to help prevent a breach of the peace if enough different people complain about the fence owners actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 On 28/10/2022 at 22:05, JonC said: called the police and council who both say it’s a civil matter and won’t do anything about it, not sure where to go with that. You go and see a civil litigator, one that specialises in property matters, particularly boundary and easement disputes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 On 28/10/2022 at 22:15, JonC said: Thanks Dave, he’s put a massive padlock on it and moved everything out of the area onto the street. Bolt cutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 https://www.land-search-online.co.uk/portal/conveyancing.asp?search=title-register might be worth spending £20 on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blooda Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 11 hours ago, joe90 said: https://www.land-search-online.co.uk/portal/conveyancing.asp?search=title-register might be worth spending £20 on! Search for land and property information - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) £6 if you go straight to the source of the information and not an intermediary. In fact they are charging Price: £34.90 for the Title Register and Plan, that costs £6 on .Gov.uk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 On the 6ft fence, it looks to me as if a 6ft fence reducing visibility on that corner could be a threat to road safety for people / kids coming out of the side-lane. That would be the Highways Dept at the relevant local council (here it would be County not District). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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