What counts as a medium or high end finish?

[smart51]

After years of looking, we've found a self build plot.  It's not ours yet, but I'm putting a lot of thought into build costs etc so that we've got a plan.  One of the things I've not nailed down is an outline price per m2.  Various places say £1500 to £2000 m2 for a medium finish and £2500+ for a high end finish.  Nowhere spells out what they are though.

 

We're planning 200m2 of single story pavilion style house.  Brick and block, flat roof (circa 8° slope) with 30kW of PV.  under floor heating, heat pump.  Painted plaster internal walls.  Nice bathrooms (two off) but not extravagant.  High Street kitchen.  50m2 kitchen / diner / lounge with bifolds.  Aluminium windows.   Where does that kind of spec land us?  Nicer than a new build 3 bed semi but no where near Grand Designs.

[nod]

Medium spec is pretty much what you would get from Persimmons Barrett’s etc Higher spec would be UFH German or Italian kitchen and bathrooms perhaps Slate roof Aluminum w frames 

Your probably somewhere in between 

[Dreadnaught]

The broad "per sq.m" figures are rather general I find. Dividing it between first and second fix might give further insight and would make more sense to me. "Finish" for me implies a relationship with spend on second-fix especially.

 

From your description I would say yours as high-spec but for M&E only. Anything else is difficult to tell. I also wonder if there is an aesthetic component to "low" vs "high" spec finish too asp received by a potential buyer. Does a high-spec finish have a certain look I wonder?

 

("Single story pavilion style house". Nice phrase. Better than the term I had been using for mine … "modern bungalow". I will steal it.)

[smart51]

24 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

("Single story pavilion style house". Nice phrase. Better than the term I had been using for mine … "modern bungalow". I will steal it.)

 

A pavilion has an outside terrace with an overhanging roof, usually on the south side to shield the sun from the windows.  Rather than going full Mies Van Der Rohe and have a frameless glass wall dividing the terrace from the open plan space in the house, we'll be going for full length bifolds, which is the modern equivalent.  Otherwise, steal away.

 

27 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

From your description I would say yours as high-spec but for M&E only. Anything else is difficult to tell. I also wonder if there is an aesthetic component to "low" vs "high" spec finish too asp received by a potential buyer. Does a high-spec finish have a certain look I wonder?

 

That's kind of the question I'm trying to answer.  Is high spec all metre square porcelain tiles and unobtainium worktops with slate feature walls and frameless windows, or is it anything above what you'd buy in B&Q?  I'm not interested in shadow gaps and skirtingboardless junctions really.

[nod]

9 hours ago, smart51 said:

 

A pavilion has an outside terrace with an overhanging roof, usually on the south side to shield the sun from the windows.  Rather than going full Mies Van Der Rohe and have a frameless glass wall dividing the terrace from the open plan space in the house, we'll be going for full length bifolds, which is the modern equivalent.  Otherwise, steal away.

 

 

That's kind of the question I'm trying to answer.  Is high spec all metre square porcelain tiles and unobtainium worktops with slate feature walls and frameless windows, or is it anything above what you'd buy in B&Q?  I'm not interested in shadow gaps and skirtingboardless junctions really.

I would say going beyond what is fine and will do the job 

Apart from UFH and MVR
and slate roofs 

Most high end is on the finish 

 

[JohnMo]

Is high end just something that's been given thought and isn't just the normal monopoly house, with the basic fitted kitchen and bathrooms.

 

High end can mean nothing, it maybe just saying you spent loads on finishes, lights, floor, kitchen and bathrooms, doesn't mean it looks nice, functions well.

 

In our pavilion (bungalow yesterday), we have a great kitchen and great bathrooms.  We spend quite a bit of time on the design, then sourced the right quality at the right price.  You don't have to spend a fortune to get a high end finish, but you can. 

 

If you entrust the buying and design to a third party you will pay a high price for you high end finish.

 

As with all things self build, if you truly self build you are very much in the day to day driving seat, if you self build by getting a third party to do everything for you, you are a passenger who pays the fees.

 

[CharlieKLP]

It’s not really about the design, it’s the finishes that make it high end, ie expensive.
 

If you have a timber frame,  things that will make it more expensive are large spans (glulam or steels).
 

The high spec is lots of glazing, vaulted ceilings and the kitchen… porcelain tiles and underfloor, hidden gutters in aluminium roof, that kind of thing.
 

There’s no reason a box that’s 100m2 is that much more expensive than an L shape etc. I think that’s a myth and I’ve heard it a lot. 
 

Simple, effective designs are no more expensive than cheap crap ones. They just look more high end. It’s cost vs perceived value to some degree.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[smart51]

That all makes sense.  Features, materials and finishes.  Large spanned open spaces cost more in joists than normal sized rooms with supporting walls.  Slate costs more than tile.  Shadow gaps cost more than skirting and architrave.  That's a useful insight when playing with ideas.

[Kelvin]

Your costs per sqm are probably out unless doing a lot yourself. You can spend a lot more on the fabric of the building to make it more air tight and more energy efficient none of which you can actually see. Whether you consider that as high spec is down to you but it will increase your sqm costs. 

[CharlieKLP]

I don’t think £2000 is too much  to aim for as about average/good spec, if you project manage yourself it can take off about 10% 

[smart51]

20 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Your costs per sqm are probably out unless doing a lot yourself. You can spend a lot more on the fabric of the building to make it more air tight and more energy efficient none of which you can actually see. Whether you consider that as high spec is down to you but it will increase your sqm costs. 

What would you suggest is more realistic?

[ProDave]

I would say there is a lot you can do to make a house "high end" by attention to some details and some creative / lucky purchasing.

 

We went for Oak throughout.  So Oak floors, (engineered not solid and chosen on price after looking at a lot)  Oak doors fitted into home made Oak door liners as ready made solid oak door liners were silly money.  Veneered oak skirtings, look good buy not overly pricey.

 

Kithchen was from Howdens but finished with Granite worktops.

 

3G Aluminium clad Rationel windows were in fact the cheapest of those that bothered to quote.

 

Good air tightness and insulation does not in fact cost much, not if you are doing a lot yourself. Most of getting good air tightness is attention to detail, rather than expensive parts for example.

 

Under floor heating by diligent buying was probably cheaper than a load of radiators, but much nicer.  Air source heat pump DIY installed and purchased for no more than a standard boiler.

 

And so it goes on throughout the build, each individual item chosen for a quality finish at a budget price.

 

So I think what I am saying is if you want a nice finish, you need to be very involved in choosing and buying everything, and if you have the skills fit yourself, otherwise you need to only employ trusted or highly personally recommended trades.  e.g. there was only 1 joiner out of the many I know, that I trusted to machine and fit an Oak kitchen worktop.

[Jilly]

A lot of  a 'high end' look is also about style. It's possible to spend a lot of money and still have it look naff, whereas someone with taste can achieve a really good look on a budget. It's very personal though, what do you like? Can you spend time looking for bargains and have storage for things you find?  Style only really matters if you plan to sell at some point.

[Temp]

30kW of PV is about the biggest system I've ever heard of on a house. That's going to be around £21k or £100 per square meter. Edit: without a battery.

 

Tile/stone flooring works best with UFH but costs around £100-£130 per square meter according to checkatrade. Some stone is double that or more buy the time it's stuck down and sealed.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Temp

[Temp]

53 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

 if you project manage yourself it can take off about 10% 

 

+1 although it might even cost you money if you don't know what you are doing. 

 

If you are made of money you could easily spend..

 

Builder 10-15%

Architect - managing the builder (technical/quality and schedule issues) 11%

Quantity Surveyor - managing the builder (stage valuations and stage payments) 10%.

 

 

[Kelvin]

52 minutes ago, smart51 said:

What would you suggest is more realistic?

It depends. Are you doing anything yourself, are you employing trades and managing yourself, are using a main contractor etc £1500 would be hard enough to achieve even if you did a lot of it yourself. Look at some of the recent quotes on here going with a main contractor for example. Way above £2500. 

[Temp]

In case its not obvious..  you should probably aim for at least double the insulation required by the Building Regs.

[Kelvin]

20 minutes ago, Temp said:

30kW of PV is about the biggest system I've ever heard of on a house. That's going to be around £21k or £100 per square meter. Edit: without a battery.

 

Tile/stone flooring works best with UFH but costs around £100-£130 per square meter according to checkatrade. Some stone is double that or more buy the time it's stuck down and sealed.

 

 

I got a recent quote for 1200x600 porcelain tiles that was £160/m2 fitted. They said their tile prices have increased dramatically since the start of the year. The engineered oak flooring from the same place was £150/m2 fitted. 

[Simplysimon]

5 hours ago, CharlieKLP said:

 

The high spec is lots of glazing, vaulted ceilings and the kitchen… porcelain tiles

got to disagree with that, all of that is someone who want's everyone to come in and go 'wow'. if the finish isn't great it still won't be high end, just a house someone wanted to impress others with. as @Jilly says, style and taste with also care in the detailing.

[Pocster]

“ high end “ is subjective . A ‘fantastic ‘ kitchen and bathroom with good finishes is important.

I notice little things in other houses . Take taps for example ; they can look great - touch them and you can tell they are plastic not steel . Then I assume we have the illusion of expense without the real material . Light switches and sockets are a detail where plain standard white is just as functional as metal / glass ones - but gives a perception of ‘better ness ‘ .

The “ over use “ of glass ; glass balustrade/ glass staircase etc. suggests high end I.e higher budget .

But equally with some skill / planning you can make moderate costing items appear high end if customised e.g ikea wardrobes .

Its a bit of an illusion unless you have buckets of cash . Also it’s relative to the properties value .

Edited September 7, 2022 by pocster

[TonyT]

My high end is hardwood skirtings, doors all hand made and painted with white satin.

 

3m high ceilings for me too, but needed good trades to make the finish work,j

just finishing defect period on a £x,xxx,xxx building and the trade finish is poor.

[Gus Potter]

On 06/09/2022 at 19:39, smart51 said:

After years of looking, we've found a self build plot.

Spot on!

 

For me good design starts with the structural fabric. Then what and how is the house to be used for, is resale value important, or do you want a forever house that you can adapt not just in terms of layout but to make it easy for you to change things as fashions and your taste changes over time.

 

Structurally, if this is your forever home the medium / high end design takes into acount your future needs and what we don't know we don't know to some extent. The way to deal with this is to not push everything to the max in terms of structural design.. I'm not saying you over size everything.. you just make sure that you build in enough say sideways sway resistance to a building to let you take out some walls later and not put lots of point loads down onto a pad foundation that is just hanging in there.

 

You can identify parts of the structure that are getting pushed, some founds may settle / shrink but still stay within the movement limit and be fine SE wise.

 

But all that movement ends up somewhere and will manifest in your finishes, could be cracking, sticky doors / windows etc.

 

Things you can do for example are if you have a bit open plan space is to incorporate shaddow gaps / reveals. This lets you redecorate small panels of wall in a room without doing the whole room, thus quickly over a weekend you can reinvigorate a space without having to change the whole space. That is designing for your own living not what a developer thinks you need.. medium / high end?

 

If you design the fabric of the building to last and move less than say a "major developer house" then you can probably work it so that you can afford "high end" stuff at a medium end price and it will last, still function and look good.

5 hours ago, Jilly said:

A lot of  a 'high end' look is also about style.

Unfortunately as Jilly alludes to, if you have no style then you need to do a bit of work on this aspect, it is a learnt skill to some extent so worth putting in the effort. This way you can get a lot more for less, it just takes time.