Window order checking / comparing suppliers

[craig]

@JSHarris This topic wasn't put together for any commercial reason, it wasn't put together for advertising.

 

it was put together as a helpful topic for those comparing quotes specifically regarding being like for like.

 

It was not aimed at any particular supplier.

 

For some reason, someone felt it appropriate to start mentioning what is dealt with in technical documentation, test certification and so forth. Which to be honest aren't really listed in quotations and not something that is really looked at when comparing and wholly irrelevant in my view to the topic.

 

I thought I was being helpful in a non commercial way and not siding with any supplier.

 

I apologise if that has not been the case.

[jamiehamy]

5 minutes ago, craig said:

@JSHarrismentioning what is dealt with in technical documentation, test certification and so forth. Which to be honest aren't really listed in quotations and not something that is really looked at when comparing and wholly irrelevant in my view to the topic.

 

Don't agree that these aspects are irrelevant I'm afraid - in fact for those building houses to high performance standards,  these things can be essential. 

 

You did state earlier a view on externally glazed units,  something we have. Initially I was concerned about these until it was pointed out a while ago that these have very specific benefits in some applications - particularly high wind and rain locations,  which we have. 

 

One thing I have learned us that nothing is cut and dried when it comes to glazing. What will work for one project may not work for another. To that end seeing opposing views is,  in my mind,  useful and constructive. 

[craig]

1 minute ago, jamiehamy said:

Don't agree that these aspects are irrelevant I'm afraid - in fact for those building houses to high performance standards,  these things can be essential. 

 

You did state earlier a view on externally glazed units,  something we have. Initially I was concerned about these until it was pointed out a while ago that these have very specific benefits in some applications - particularly high wind and rain locations,  which we have. 

 

One thing I have learned us that nothing is cut and dried when it comes to glazing. What will work for one project may not work for another. To that end seeing opposing views is,  in my mind,  useful and constructive. 

 

I'm not saying they are completely irrelevant, I'm saying in a quote comparison they are as generally speaking not listed.

 

Internally glazed v's externally glazed both have pro's and cons.

 

Both are tested to high levels of wind class, some will even have hurricane test certificates.

[Monty Gerhardy]

12 hours ago, jamiehamy said:

Don't agree that these aspects are irrelevant I'm afraid - in fact for those building houses to high performance standards,  these things can be essential. 

I’d agree wholeheartedly with that.  Reading various comments on this and similar forums it’s fairly obvious that there is a lack of knowledge about fenestration – one bloke I had a discourse with back on ebuild didn’t realise that he had installed alu-clad plastic rather than the alu-clad timber he thought he was buying. To quote Patrick Hislop, Senior Consultant Architect at TRADA - “Although the window is one of the most critical components in any building, it is often the least well specified. “ (Wood Windows: Designing for high performance.  ISBN-10: 1900510626)

12 hours ago, jamiehamy said:

One thing I have learned us that nothing is cut and dried when it comes to glazing. What will work for one project may not work for another. To that end seeing opposing views is,  in my mind,  useful and constructive. 

I am happy to offer considered opinion, referenced where appropriate.  If somebody disagrees or finds fault then raise the issue and make your case. I’ve never hid my preference for timber – I’ve worked with it in various ways for over 30 years but I’m not punting any brand.  I’m not overly impressed by casual assertions and less still by lazy accusations of shilling – where’s the evidence?  Put up or shut up.

If people don’t care for my style then don’t bother reading my comments.

[Guest Alphonsox]

25 minutes ago, Monty Gerhardy said:

If people don’t care for my style then don’t bother reading my comments.

 

To be clear - You do not get to define the tone and style of this forum. We run this as a friendly and civil place to exchange ideas and knowledge. If your "style" has a problem with this then please consider whether this is the right forum for you.

[Tennentslager]

My two bobs worth is simply this...it takes more brain power to construct a cutting post with clever barbs or a subtle poke than it does to just ask a polite inquiring question to bring more attention to a topic.

Lists and multi reply stuff doesnt help...

Take it easy folks and keep it clean.

[Nickfromwales]

We'll review this exchange tomorrow and see where we go from there

There are no big fish in this pond. 

[craig]

I don't want to upset the Apple cart of a friendly and welcoming site.

 

I thought I could offer some impartial help.

 

I'll personally take a step away, purely on the basis that I'm not a home builder but within an industry that supplies to the home builder.

 

I'm just sorry to the members and staff, that what I thought was a helpful topic has been brought into the gutter.

Edited June 15, 2017 by craig

[Barney12]

18 hours ago, craig said:

I don't want to upset the Apple cart of a friendly and welcoming site.

 

I thought I could offer some impartial help.

 

I'll personally take a step away, purely on the basis that I'm not a home builder but within an industry that supplies to the home builder.

 

I'm just sorry to the members and staff, that what I thought was a helpful topic has been brought into the gutter.

 

Craig, don't be disheartened. There are plenty of people on this forum (myself included) that have a commercial interest in construction related activities (but to be clear I have no commercial interests in the self build market and am purely here to persue my personal long term love of self build and home renovation). I have read all your posts and personally don't see you have "crossed the line" into touting for business. In fact you did the honourable thing by admitting in your first post that you had a commercial interest, there are plenty I'm sure that haven't.

 

Your only crime is to have provided oxygen to what I feel were a number of posts which which at best "combative" in nature. 

 

Anyway I'm not a moderator, just a contributor and benefactor of a great forum so mods feel free to delete my views. I am very rarely offended  

 

[Construction Channel]

@craig I am a mod and although i may be speaking out of turn i agree that your original post was made with the best of intentions.

AFAIC you went about it the right way by declaring your professional/commercial interest, contributing to other threads and then creating what i consider a useful checklist for the general public,

 

this is being discussed by the moderation team as we speak so this thread may well be edited back to something useful instead of the mess it has become but as @Barney12 said don't be disheartened. 

you haven't got any black marks yet

 

Ed

[Jeremy Harris]

I think I've said this before here, or maybe on this forums closed predecessor, Ebuild, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it.

 

My view is that forums like this are communities of like minded people, and there are parallels with a group of regulars in a pub. Many here have known each other a long time, several years for some of us.  I joined the old Ebuild forum in 2008, and there are a lot of members here who were members of Ebuild from back then, too.  That means we all know each other pretty well.

 

When a new member joins, we try to be welcoming, but it does pay for new members to have a think about how they may be perceived by a bunch of people that have known each other for a long time.  For example, if someone entered a pub, and started giving the locals unsolicited advice, just because they felt it might be useful, and with no knowledge of the skills and experience of those locals, how do you think it would be received?

 

The advice may well have been given with the very best intentions, but I'll lay money that many of those locals would get their backs up at someone they didn't know telling them stuff that some of them may already be very familiar with.

 

The same applies here to a degree.  We have a broad range of members, from university and college lecturers, academics, members of our emergency services, energy assessors, planning and tax experts, IT administrators and systems designers, tradespeople in every aspect of construction, engineers, technologists, serial self builders with a great deal of practical experience, and at least one oddball scientist.

 

Taking the time to understand the nature of this forum, and the very broad range of skills and experience within its membership, before posting anything, is a wise move for any new member.  The better we all get to know new members, the more inclined we will be to accept them with open arms into our online community.

[craig]

Thanks @Barney12 @Construction Channel The post was made with the best of intentions and as help for quote checking.

 

I wholeheartedly expected for others to come in and ask question or say things may have been missed. I didn't expect for someone to come in and descend it into chaos for no apparent reason other than an ego trip.

 

Thank you for the support, my profession is windows and Passive House including steps towards certification (I'm not a certifier). This is where I can offer advice in an independent way, obviously my interests are towards  the business but not here.

 

Im not a fountain of all knowledge but I certainly have above average knowledge when it comes to windows and installation details etc.

 

@JSHarris I fully understand what you are saying, I have owned/run forums using IPS in fact for nearly 20 years (since the days of Ikonboard) and still run/own a large forum. Forum etiquette is something I'm fully aware of. 

 

I'm also aware of a newbie rubbing long term members backs up. Which is part of the reason for the introduction and declaring immediately. Some on this forum will know me, wasn't any point trying to hide that fact (not that I would have anyway).

 

If anyone had an issue with how I have posted then that's for them to advise why and for me to learn and understand how.

 

Before posting I read all the relevant topics about how the site became to be, I understand the ethos of the site and I've understood the feel good friendly nature of the site from browsing the topics in every section. 

 

I know some clever people are present here and from all aspects of life. So I'm not trying to tell people this is how it is and what you must do. Just friendly advice on what I would do as someone who checks quotes, trains staff on window systems, differences between systems, manufacturers,  processes orders, deals with technical drawings, detailing, service related issues and so forth.

 

I've been in the industry now for nearly 9 years and understand others with greater knowledge exist and willing to learn from them. However when someone tries to call me out or tries to make me look like a fool. That's a different matter.

 

I have and will continue to contribute in other areas but I'm not going to just spam across the forum, if I have something to contribute I will.

[Ferdinand]

@craig

 

I think you will be fine.

 

11 likes on 30 posts is a good start.

 

We just need a tot of brandy.

 

F

[Nickfromwales]

@craig

Afaic, you've stood your ground, 'behaved' admirably, and offered transparency which is good enough for me.

A bumpy start but ? happens . Stick around ?  

[Triassic]

I need a window schedule, my architect didn't supply one and the frame company say, just wait till the frames up and get the window companies to come and do a site measure. What's best?

[Jeremy Harris]

8 minutes ago, Triassic said:

I need a window schedule, my architect didn't supply one and the frame company say, just wait till the frames up and get the window companies to come and do a site measure. What's best?

 

I produced an "as designed" window schedule, based on the plans I drew up, to get quotes from window suppliers and select the one we decided to contract with.  The frame company confirmed that the frame had been manufactured to the required dimensions (10mm bigger in both axis than the actual window size, as required by the window supplier) before it left their factory.  The day after the frame was erected the window supplier sent their representative over to double check that the on site opening dimensions were correct and just over a week later the windows arrived and were fitted.

 

All told there was a fair bit of checking, first by the frame manufacturer confirming that the openings were built to the right size in the factory, again by me when the frame was erected and once more by the window supplier shortly before the windows were fitted.  I don't think you can check the window sizes, openings and specifications too many times!

Edited June 17, 2017 by JSHarris

[ProDave]

It can work differently with different window suppliers. In our case the window supplier did not attend site, but the builder who was supplying and fitting them did come twice and check all the measurements before finally submitting the order, as he would be the one with a problem to solve if something was wrong.

[craig]

This to be honest, is probably the biggest pet hate of any window supplier. 

 

One of thee biggest expenses and one of thee biggest things that could go wrong. Yet architects seem to think of this as an after thought ?

 

No sizes supplied to openings on elevations, no window schedule supplied. 

 

When schedules are supplied what about section details? How has the window been proposed to go into the opening? What's the cill depth etc.

 

Any type of schedule is appreciated but a drawing schedule is preferable and indicating how the are viewed (inside or out).

 

Most suppliers will work with the client/architect/contractor/kit supplier so that the windows can be ordered of drawings.

 

Some will need a site measurement (few and far between to be honest), more required for a refurb than anything else.

[ProDave]

I think the purpose of a site measurement is to make sure the frame has been built to the drawings.

 

It was a little strange that our builders came to measure the openings before placing the order for the windows as they were the same ones that built the frame.  It was virtually a sanity check to make sure that they had indeed made the window openings the size shown on the drawings.

[Jeremy Harris]

In our case it was the window suppliers themselves who checked the opening dimensions and fitted the windows, and although they could have claimed that any window openings that were the wrong size was my fault, as I'd had to sign the drawing of each individual window and door when placing the order, they still sent someone around to check.

[Peter M]

I've just found this thread and although it is quite old (2017) I feel that our experiences may help or enlighten the pit falls that one can very easily fall into. 

Our chosen company, who shall remain nameless for the time being were outstanding in the sales, quotation, survey and installation aspects of the process, or so we thought. We took the best part of three years maybe more speaking with various suppliers of all types of windows and door systems so when we found a company that promised to 'hold our hand' through the whole process we were relieved as our chosen product, aluminium, was a fast emerging product for domestic applications and situations. 

 

That all being said and after agreeing on the type, design and reviewing 7, yes 7 versions of what we decided upon we were never ever was given the opportunity or chance to see, physically, what was being produced until they were delivered to site, and even then as they were in component form and had to be assembled prior to being fitted into the prepared openings it wasn't evident what they would look like, big mistake!! 

 

The chosen profile was/is very thick, despite us requesting a slim as possible frame, windows were delivered to site and fitted in a faulty condition such as gearing for the tilt and turn not operating as it should, trickle vents cut into the wrong position of the head of the frame, drip bars drilled and fixed in a different position than is detailed by the official technical fabrication manual from the profile producer, we were also not advised that there would be anything up to eight weep vents with plastic covers over them for some frames although concealed internal draining was an option, these drip/weep vent covers are not even colour coded so stand out horribly. 

 

To aid the airtightness of the build we elected to have both compriband and EPDM around all the frames and stuck back to the inner openings but as the adhesive is NOT across the whole membrane sheet it only fixes back to the inner blockwork and not the cavity closure which our plasterer says compromises the dot and dab plasterboarding inside the openings, this EPDM has also highlighted another potential issue in so far as any water entering through the frames is directed inside the building and sits on top of the membrane which will of course cause damp issues. 

This has become quite a long post and I need to get on with what I have to do today, but I will be adding more a bit later regarding the way in which this company has reacted to our concerns and having the nerve to highlight such issues and concerns once raised, stand by to stand by...... 

[Makeitstop]

I for one am keen to read your next post / posts.

[Peter M]

Following on to my previous 'rant' / post ... We are in the process of pulling together every bit of information that has been sent to us from the company right from initial consultation to where we are today and the lack of understanding of our concerns there has been from the fabricator/installer/company who seem more concerned as to when they will receive the outstanding 10% than tackle the balls-up that they have created, yes we hold ourselves to blame for some issues like not fully understanding as to how a particular frame/section may deviate from what we initially asked for but I maintain that any company worth it's salt will explain and clarify, in writing, a requested or not requested change.

 

For instance one of our larger 1st floor doors was to be made with a flying mullion in the centre with the two opening casements tilt & turn, no problem we were told, fresh quotation was sent out, CAD drawing supplied showing just what we requested, we checked the details and agreed that it was exactly what we wanted and signed it off, roll on more than a few weeks to just two weeks prior to beginning of install when we received an e-mail out of the blue saying "just to confirm that the two doors will not be able to fabricated in that style" so they suggested one door would be tilt and turn and the other that the mullion would be connected to would be a turn only, OK we said after we queried the email and change proposed not exactly what we wanted but hey ho it seems as if you can't get everything you would like nowadays even when you had been told it was possible, roll forward to day of installation of said doors and the gearing immediately failed which the fitter spent the best part of TWO HOURS wrestling with to try and make it work, but he did, then we discover that the locking handle attached to the slave door with the flying mullion affixed just spins around and does not perform any function apart from being there to look good, which it didn't, wrong handle style for a start & loose, the only way to latch and un-latch the slave door was to fiddle around with two very small and difficult metal tabs, one top and one bottom, which when you have arthritis is NOT easy at the best of times especially when you expected to have TWO handles to open, close and lock both doors!!

 

To add insult to injury as they say regarding this pair of doors I also noticed that the mitre joint in one of the corners was not flush in fact it looked as if it had slipped in the jig when being screwed together or crimped or whatever it is they do to hold the individual frame sections together so was not flush or in-line with it's pairing mitre, not a big issue I hear you say in the big scheme of things but when you have just one bad joint out of all the joints that exists on our windows it beggars belief as to why they couldn't do the same to this one!!

 

Now I move on to the Juliet Glass Balcony that is fixed across the aforementioned pair of doors, the room concerned requires a fire escape, an egress I think they call it, this Juliet was to be supplied along with another smaller Juliet by a third party company organised by the window company, which specialises in such things, the rep came out to our build to survey both windows where the two Juliet's need to be fitted but as the windows were not at that stage installed they were unable to do their survey, check or measure anything so we were told they would return to perform said survey sometime after the windows were installed but not hopefully before I had a chance of finishing off the return cladding around the two windows, we invited the chap in to have a look around and acquaint himself of the inner and outer openings where the windows would be fitted but he declined saying all that will be taken care of when the 'full survey is done' or words to that effect, you can imagine my surprise and horror to be honest when one frosty morning I woke and looked out of my window, our current house is adjacent to the new build, to see a tower erected by the Juliet balcony company and screwing the 'Skyforce Juliet glass fixings to the window frame and lifting the glass in place, this piece of glass is huge approx 2.6m wide by 1.10m tall but because the doors have drip strips running across the front at the bottom of the doors they couldn't lower the glass to just above the sill so decided to raise it up till it cleared said drip bars, you wouldn't think that this would be a problem except for the fact that as this opening was a 'Fire Escape' the maximum height of an opening could not be greater than 1.0m from the inside floor or in our case the ledge just inside the opening, which makes the top of the Juliet glass 1.240m way above what is allowed or will be signed off by building control, I managed to stop the install although it was too late for this particular one but the window company insist it is "compliant" with current building regs, which in my opinion it is NOT but can I get them to agree NO I cannot. To further add to this nightmare I believe the overall frame size had been miss-measured and when I queried the size I was told that the frame had to be returned to the factory to have side packers screwed to it to affix said Skyforce Juliet glass fixings to, and guess what when said fixing were screwed to said frame they were NOT even screed to the side packers..... strange eh!!

 

Saga to be continued, I need to go and have a drink .....?

[Simplysimon]

8 hours ago, Peter M said:

trickle vents cut into the wrong position of the head of the frame

 

8 hours ago, Peter M said:

To aid the airtightness of the build we elected to have both compriband and EPDM

how do you square the second whilst having the first?

[Peter M]

32 minutes ago, Simplysimon said:

 

how do you square the second whilst having the first?

To be honest I can't, didn't want trickle vents bloody horrible things, but they are a requirement in our building regs doc, we're not building a passive house but where we can improve the overall airtightness and control moisture around the openings EPDM was recommended as being a good option and as I understand it when the airtightness test is performed all the trickle vents are taped up.