Why don’t large commercial companies have PV ands battery storage ?

[Pocster]

Why not ?

I do .

Tescos ( other supermarkets do exist ) roof area and a large car park all ripe for PV . Churches , universities, large gyms ( e.g David Lloyd ) , stadiums , schools - the list is endless .

All that roof area and land area - yet almost most no PV panels and no battery storage.

Why do I and a few others feel the need but large corporate bodies don’t .

Cost ? . They’d save in the long term and good PR .

So what’s the issue ?

Edited August 18, 2022 by pocster

[nod]

Definitely good PR 

But like private homes It isn’t cost effective 

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, nod said:

Definitely good PR 

But like private homes It isn’t cost effective 

But isn’t it ? . Take a large Tescos store - all that roof area ; all that car parking area which could have PV above it . No idea what a Tescos kw consumption is per hour - but a big array would more than cover it - even with no battery storage . Just seems mad when “ every little helps “ - yet they do (expletive deleted) all ….. 

[ProDave]

You would think commercial premises would be ideal candidates for solar PV.  They operate mostly in the daytime so would be better  placed to self use the PV generation than domestic users.

 

One of the reasons I have heard for not doing so, is most don't own the premises, they rent or lease them. the landlord is not going to fund PV, it is of no benefit to him, and the tenant (business) is no more likely to fund it than a tenant in a rental house.

 

And I bet the idiot DNO's make it difficult. they  probably insist on expensive network upgrades even though it is clear most would be self used.  And a 3.68kW PV system would not be of much use to the average supermarket.

[Pocster]

25 minutes ago, ProDave said:

You would think commercial premises would be ideal candidates for solar PV.  They operate mostly in the daytime so would be better  placed to self use the PV generation than domestic users.

 

One of the reasons I have heard for not doing so, is most don't own the premises, they rent or lease them. the landlord is not going to fund PV, it is of no benefit to him, and the tenant (business) is no more likely to fund it than a tenant in a rental house.

 

And I bet the idiot DNO's make it difficult. they  probably insist on expensive network upgrades even though it is clear most would be self used.  And a 3.68kW PV system would not be of much use to the average supermarket.

Fair point . I do know M & S own their stores - so no lease issues . Shall email them … 

Edited August 18, 2022 by pocster

[Johnnyt]

The chap who owns the firm who fitted my system is currently signing off all the new Lidl’s that are having PV fitted. He’s all over the country.

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, Johnnyt said:

The chap who owns the firm who fitted my system is currently signing off all the new Lidl’s that are having PV fitted. He’s all over the country.

Ah - you’d never see me shop in Lidl’s ! - will bitch at my local Waitrose though .

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

you would think commercial premises would be ideal candidates for solar PV.

 Except that the businesses generally look at the return on investment and what other they could do with it.

Return in 10 years is the normal rule of thumb, then influenced by the certainty or otherwise.

 

Also, big portal frames are not designed with spare load capacity to support PV panels, or shouldn't be without the express decision by the client paying for the building.

Not only the dead weight of the panels, but also increased wind uplift.

 

I offered PV to clients, or the option to allow spare strength for the future,  but this was never chosen, and rightly in most cases.

 

 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

but also increased wind uplift

Hi @saveasteading

 

How do PV panels (I assume on rails) increase uplift on a pitched roof?

[joe90]

7 hours ago, Marvin said:

Hi @saveasteading

 

How do PV panels (I assume on rails) increase uplift on a pitched roof?

Wind getting underneath!

[markc]

Panels on the roof would also add to dead load and could significantly increase snow load. Portal frames are generally designed to bare minimum loadings to reduce build costs. 

[Marvin]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Wind getting underneath!

Ooh. That's interesting to know. How is that effected if the wind is blowing from the eaves to the ridge compared to from the ridge to the eaves?

[joth]

Some corporate buildings do.

I plan to pop in here when I'm over there next month:

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a40050447/a-dragonscale-solar-roof-is-the-sparkling-focus-of-googles-sustainable-new-bay-view-campus/

[markc]

18 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Ooh. That's interesting to know. How is that effected if the wind is blowing from the eaves to the ridge compared to from the ridge to the eaves?

Depends on panel orientation rather than ridge/eaves direction as large roofs are very low pitch. Lower edge of PV panel to wind will cause a down force, upper edge of panel to wind will produce uplift

Edited August 19, 2022 by markc

[Temp]

All over central England we have been build massive warehouses in recent years. None that I can see have pv on the roof. Some are millions of square feet. Then up the road there are PV farms being built on agricultural land. Madness.

[Ferdinand]

Under FIT it was an investment in a long term cashflow, plus some PR, for businesses.

 

Not it has to pay off, of course.

 

Since 2021 demand has shot up, looking at a few industry sources. 2022 is going to be a very big year, now that energy bills will be high for some time. I'm not sure we have the legal structure correct, though; what it probably needs is LLs investing and charging Ts for the energy at a competitive rate, but that leaves risk with LL.

 

Yes - who gets the cashflow is an issue. The FIT setup was good for that - I know even residential LLs who put in multiple installs on rental properties back in 2011 or so. 

[Ferdinand]

25 minutes ago, Temp said:

All over central England we have been build massive warehouses in recent years. None that I can see have pv on the roof. Some are millions of square feet. Then up the road there are PV farms being built on agricultural land. Madness.

 

I'm not sure if I posted it here, but Exeter has car parks with panels for the roof, and here is a recent Amazon warehouse in Tilbury with a 4.83MWp install.

 

That's 11,500 solar panels.

 

 

 

My local one seem to have some, too:

 

[Temp]

We have these nice white panels in Kettering 😞

First one is a Primark distribution Centre.. 

 

 

 

 

[markc]

Are they PV panels or skylights? PV panels roofs usually have access walkways and handrails or edge protection systems which I can’t see on those pics

[Carrerahill]

19 hours ago, pocster said:

Why not ?

I do .

Tescos ( other supermarkets do exist ) roof area and a large car park all ripe for PV . Churches , universities, large gyms ( e.g David Lloyd ) , stadiums , schools - the list is endless .

All that roof area and land area - yet almost most no PV panels and no battery storage.

Why do I and a few others feel the need but large corporate bodies don’t .

Cost ? . They’d save in the long term and good PR .

So what’s the issue ?

Lack of investment. Most of those big sheds will be owned by big firms, big firms are usually owned by shareholders, assets change hands, businesses are bought and sold. If I own 50% of a business who plans to use funds to invest in the business I might decide, well if I can get 5 more years out of this and sell up then I'll be sorted why would I let them spend x amount on PV - sad truth. It takes long term investors and future thinking for big businesses to get things like this. Most of these older big sheds are pretty rough inside. I did a site survey of the M&E services of a shed for a £365m turnover (with high margin before anyone comments) company, the place was a pit, a total pit, lighting was from the 80's, place was literally manky, H&S almost didn't exist, I was almost hit by 2 forklifts being driven round blind corners at high speed, a single peep peep on the horn being the safety measure. Holes in the roof, I walked into the site and had 100% access without any checks, no manned security, a few poor girls in a disgusting office. Upstairs things were maybe better, the line up of Bentleys and Land Rover's told the story really.

 

I am also involved in new build sheds from time to time, often the developer will not want to spend a single penny more than they need to. Different game but similar deal, housing developers will put in the bare minimum to comply. We got SAP calcs in which stated each flat needed 0.45kW per flat to comply. We proposed a 500W panel per flat, contractor reduced it to a 450W panel because it was £25 a flat cheaper. Personally I would have filled the roof, but what benefit does the developer get? They don't give a stuff. 

 

We have another national client who owns and builds for its own use up and down the country, no PV going on the roof even though their buildings have heavy electrical loads. No PV needed, they comply because they have a CHP. Architect said, oh lets cover the roof in PV - client, "Oh do we need that to comply". If not, it is not going on.

 

I think maybe things will start to change, but sadly I think the PV market has now turned and prices are increased, there was a general downward trend in PV prices, not now. 

 

 

[Carrerahill]

48 minutes ago, Temp said:

We have these nice white panels in Kettering 😞

First one is a Primark distribution Centre.. 

 

 

 

 

I don't actually see any PV - maybe the top picture the little bit at the top right but those just look like tin roofs with roof lights.

[Temp]

3 hours ago, markc said:

Are they PV panels or skylights? PV panels roofs usually have access walkways and handrails or edge protection systems which I can’t see on those pics

 

Skylights.

 

3 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

I don't actually see any PV - maybe the top picture the little bit at the top right but those just look like tin roofs with roof lights.

 

Sorry I was joking about white PV panels. 

 

 

[saveasteading]

On 19/08/2022 at 00:33, Marvin said:

How do PV panels (I assume on rails) increase uplift on a pitched roof?

Everyone above is correct. 

On large span portal frame buildings, with slopes about 10% but down to 2%, there is generally an upward force from wind, and all the screws and bolts are holding the roof on and the building down.

Adding PV panels complicates the forces immensely, and especially very locally. The cost of reinforcing the structure is a very small proportion* of what the PV installation would cost.

I have had installers phone and ask for permission to fix PV, which I could not give. Perhaps we could find enough redundancy for 30% cover but that would be the limit.  The installers then whinged and demonstrated that they knew and cared nothing about structures, just their potential job.

The least knowledgeable fitters may also just screw down to roof panels or purlins.

 

On a steeper roof where any snow might be assumed to slide off, the panels will retain it and the whole building will be subject to 1m of snow as well as the panels weight.

All buildings (except agricultural) have safety factors which include for bad workmanship and incompetence, so few buildings fail. But if they do it will be drastic, and not covered by any insurance other than the PV fitter, who will disappear rapidly.

 

* But a lot of money wasted if the capacity is never required.

[joth]

>Why don’t large commercial companies have PV ands battery storage ?

 

Maybe not here, but the EU is working on making PV a legal obligation:

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_3131

• A Solar Rooftop Initiative with a phased-in legal obligation to install solar panels on new public and commercial buildings and new residential buildings.

[joe90]

Brilliant idea, I think our gov should give the £5K they offered fir installing ASHP,s  should be given towards insulation instead (don’t get me wrong I have an ASHP and it’s good fir me). But insulation will reduce ANY type of fuel use and lasts forever.