Durisol - in administration

[FM2015]

4 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

Not patronising bud, a good idea. Videos on here demonstrating the 'how' of things is actually a good idea. We are all too busy just getting on with things so at best we have pics which can be used to give an idea when explaining something. Pro videos can only be a good thing for future members looking to or in the midst of building.

Best not give too many trade secrets away 😬 but follow on trades, as the vast majority haven't worked with ICF, shouldn't get me into too much bother. 

[Mako]

On 19/05/2022 at 12:43, jack said:

 

Where are you getting these temperatures from? Models? Real world data?

 

Bear in mind that to achieve the same U-values as the sorts of foam insulation typically used with concrete, you'll have a significant thickness of cellulose, and cellulose is an insulator (i.e., it resists movement of heat). You therefore can't just assume that the same internal heat gains will result in cellulose reaching 30° while concrete will only increase to 23°.

 

On a warm/sunny day, you'll also have heat traversing the insulation from the outside. Assuming the use of low heat capacity foam insulation with the concrete, heat will traverse the insulation much faster than a high capacity insulation like cellulose. That's because the energy added to the outside of the insulation needs to raise the insulation temperature to cause the energy to move through the insulation, and you need more energy to raise the temperature of a given volume of cellulose than the same volume of foam insulation.

 

Also, because the cellulose is thicker (necessary to achieve the same U-value), heat will take even longer to traverse it than the foam.

Why do you believe that concrete returns heat to a room overnight, but the cellulose somehow immediately drops from 30° to less than room temperature such that the house needs additional heating?

 

For what it's worth, I live in a cellulose-insulated house and it doesn't behave anything like how you describe. It's generally pretty resistant to temperature change, much like how high "thermal mass" buildings are said to perform. It tends to take a long time to get warm, for example, but once it does, it retains the heat for a long time. This can actually be a bit of a disadvantage, because after a string of hot days, even aggressive night-time purging doesn't always cool the building fabric enough to overcome daytime gains.

 

 

Dense-pack cellulose tends to resist air movement. We achieved under 0.6 ACH (i.e., the Passivhaus requirement) with no special attention to airtightness other than a good basic design and paying some attention during construction.

 

Why do you think cellulose houses aren't soundproof? Our house is as soundproof as any other house I've been in, and others on here have remarked on how quiet cellulose-insulated houses can be. 

 

Solid feel is something I agree with. I would prefer that concrete or masonry solidity, but it isn't a big deal.

 

I should add that if I were building again, I would certainly consider some sort of ICF construction. My main point is that you seem to be making a lot of assumptions that don't bear out my experience.

Hi Jack,

 

thank you for your input, but I think we have crossed wires..

the point I was trying to make was, regardless of insulation used,

you either have thermal mass provided by concrete or you don’t when building with timber. Concrete having the high density, heat storage capacity means that it will absorb heat easier that timber framed building.

In terms of solar gains, I meant gains you get through windows not the walls. I also mentioned that the model would have same Uvalue, not worried about the thickness. And the temperature figures were from real

project of similar size and orientation, where one was build in exposed concrete with concrete floors and the other in timber.

 

 

Why does the Celulose 30’C drops, it’s because it’s hard to live in a house 

at that temperature, so you open windows to cool the house down, and the energy you gained for free has been let out. Concrete house doesn’t need to get rid of the free energy as it has the capacity to store it, and because of the density of concrete it can absorb more heat than the air in the house. When the heat is stored it will reflect it gradually back into the room. Concrete and the air in the house will be of the same temperature,

if the air cools down, the walls will balance it, say walls are at 23’C and the air temp suddenly dropped to 19’C depending on the amount of air and thermal mass you might get closure to 21’C, where walls will heat the air in the house, in the process will loose the heat they stored. Does it make sense?

 

sound proofing, have you been in a concrete house? With 50-60dB sound reduction between walls? Massive difference compared to TF.

 

I’m glad that you would like to improve and build a concrete house,

I have had a friend who was a contractor blowing cellulose into cavities

Of walls even pitched roofs, but he said that only issue cellulose has that it self compacts after installation and that can create voids.

 

im trying to find a reason why not to build using concrete with external insulation.

[Mr Punter]

On 17/05/2022 at 00:33, Nickfromwales said:

As one of our original boffins once noted here, plasterboard actually has a very high specific heat capacity, so not quite cut and dry.

 

 

A fatal flaw in this is that the table shows plaster density at 2,700kg/m3 when in fact it is about 650kg/m3.

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

plaster density at 2,700kg/m3 when in fact it is about 650kg/m3.

Does plaster/PB float?

[JohnMo]

It's just under 24kg a sheet, so density quoted as 650kg/M3 looks correct.  So it must float, but not tried it.

[Nickfromwales]

16 hours ago, FM2015 said:

And if that comes across as patronising or anything other than just trying to help, I apologise.

Not at all. I’m just a bit of a blunt tool, so, apologies all round 😘.

We do get some who say they run a 4 minute mile, but the majority of active members here are doing a mixture of strolling, tumbling, and picking themselves back up, so appreciate the offer of the videos. 
If not too commercially garnished, by all means post them directly here ( just post links to the videos ) and folk can see the hot knife in operation. FYI, I will bank that info , if you’re not growing, you’re dying.

 

One ( of the ) advantage(s) of battening, is the ability to pack and screw to soak up any notable deflection from a less than excellent build / pour.

 

16 hours ago, FM2015 said:

The issue, and I think to some extent what your opinion is based on, is that this level of information is not always given or available to the self builder other than through forums like this.

Exactamundo, and yes. One of the reasons we chew the cud a fair bit tbh.

I’ll always prefer EPS over woodcrete btw. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Nickfromwales

[SteamyTea]

@Gone West, @joe90 and myself could turn up at the film set and we could have a go.

Think @BotusBuild has used ICF, depends if he is about.

[Russell griffiths]

@MakoIm trying to find a reason why not to build using concrete with external insulation.

 

a fairly big reason would be getting somebody to do it. 

You would need a very competent concrete contractor, probably found in the civil engineering world rather than house builders. 

A friend has a 90% concrete house and they really had to go to an industrial scale to get the appropriate contractors. 

 

If you have the budget then then that’s fine but for a standard size house it would be hard to get a contractor interested. 

Million pound build not so much of a problem. 

[Russell griffiths]

All the videos @FM2015talks about are readily available on YouTube, if people do the hunting. 

Anybody picking an icf product should have a good hunt on YouTube, if you cannot find it on there chances are not many people are using that product. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Russell griffiths

[jack]

19 hours ago, Mako said:

Hi Jack,

 

thank you for your input, but I think we have crossed wires..

the point I was trying to make was, regardless of insulation used,

you either have thermal mass provided by concrete or you don’t when building with timber. Concrete having the high density, heat storage capacity means that it will absorb heat easier that timber framed building.

In terms of solar gains, I meant gains you get through windows not the walls. I also mentioned that the model would have same Uvalue, not worried about the thickness. And the temperature figures were from real

project of similar size and orientation, where one was build in exposed concrete with concrete floors and the other in timber.

 

 

Why does the Celulose 30’C drops, it’s because it’s hard to live in a house 

at that temperature, so you open windows to cool the house down, and the energy you gained for free has been let out. Concrete house doesn’t need to get rid of the free energy as it has the capacity to store it, and because of the density of concrete it can absorb more heat than the air in the house. When the heat is stored it will reflect it gradually back into the room. Concrete and the air in the house will be of the same temperature,

if the air cools down, the walls will balance it, say walls are at 23’C and the air temp suddenly dropped to 19’C depending on the amount of air and thermal mass you might get closure to 21’C, where walls will heat the air in the house, in the process will loose the heat they stored. Does it make sense?

 

sound proofing, have you been in a concrete house? With 50-60dB sound reduction between walls? Massive difference compared to TF.

 

I’m glad that you would like to improve and build a concrete house,

I have had a friend who was a contractor blowing cellulose into cavities

Of walls even pitched roofs, but he said that only issue cellulose has that it self compacts after installation and that can create voids.

 

im trying to find a reason why not to build using concrete with external insulation.

 

If you want an ICF house, build an ICF house. You obviously have it all figured out.

[JohnMo]

Been modifying my heating system today (it been off for many weeks) and had to drain down my buffer cylinder (using a 160l thermal store). 

 

The next bit surprised me.

 

Anyway refilled with water from my borehole, so water going in to cylinder circa 6 to 8 degC.  Started the UFH circulation pump (boiler off), next thing I noticed (possibly 20mins later) the buffer cylinder temperature had jumped to 25 degC.  So our floor must be circa 25 degC at the level of the UFH pipes.

 

Floor make up gives a U value of 0.09.  the concrete screed is 190m2 and 100mm deep, so circa 47Te

[BotusBuild]

On 21/05/2022 at 14:06, SteamyTea said:

Think @BotusBuild has used ICF, depends if he is about.

I certainly am using ICF - Nudura, and received delivery of next floor kit before it went up 15%. Not sure exactly when it will be going in place. But I am happy and wiling to provide a film set when I want channels cutting in EPS for my low smoke cabling and water pipes 🙂 

Edited May 22, 2022 by BotusBuild

[FM2015]

3 hours ago, BotusBuild said:

I certainly am using ICF - Nudura, and received delivery of next floor kit before it went up 15%. Not sure exactly when it will be going in place. But I am happy and wiling to provide a film set when I want channels cutting in EPS for my low smoke cabling and water pipes 🙂 

Is that low smoke cabling so as to avoid conduits?  Come across a few jobs where this was the case only to fall foul of protection measures.

 

Unless you put them deep enough, you'll still need protection.  Cost of cable over normal will be in the same ball park as normal plus conduit.

You can form a channel that is almost key hole shaped so the conduit 'clips' in.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

You can form a channel that is almost key hole shaped so the conduit 'clips' in.

I like that idea.

So all meet up @BotusBuild's for tea, cake and hotknifing.

[BotusBuild]

32 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

Is that low smoke cabling so as to avoid conduits?

Been mentioned by my friendly local electrician, and so I will need to check whether putting standard in conduit is an option

[BotusBuild]

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

So all meet up @BotusBuild's for tea, cake and hotknifing.

As soon as SWMBO decides where the sockets are going, we can arrange something 😉. No holding of breath, please.

[SteamyTea]

36 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

Is that low smoke cabling so as to avoid conduits?  Come across a few jobs where this was the case only to fall foul of protection measures

Not a good idea to put cabling and polystyrene together.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

Just now, BotusBuild said:

As soon as SWMBO decides where the sockets are going

1 single in each room, 2 in the kitchen.

 

[FM2015]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Not a good idea to put cabling and polystyrene together.

 

 

That's why it needs protection, not just from someone hanging a picture.  Just watch a north American YouTube video on hot knifing and electrics....suffice to say, I wouldn't do it like that 🤦🏼

[SteamyTea]

Found this about wiring.

 

328081417_ElectricWiringforDomesticInstallations.pdf

[Nick Laslett]

11 hours ago, FM2015 said:

That's why it needs protection, not just from someone hanging a picture.  Just watch a north American YouTube video on hot knifing and electrics....suffice to say, I wouldn't do it like that 🤦🏼

I’m very close to first fix with my ICF build. I have already procured a hot knife, KD-7H. Here is a picture from the Thermohouse manual. 

This is what I was going to copy. @FM2015  Any advice appreciated, my sparks has no prior ICF experience so we are on this journey together. 
 

 

[SteamyTea]

52 minutes ago, Nick Laslett said:

Any advice appreciated

As all the cables are in conduit, I think you can go for a Type 2 installation.

[FM2015]

15 hours ago, Nick Laslett said:

I’m very close to first fix with my ICF build. I have already procured a hot knife, KD-7H. Here is a picture from the Thermohouse manual. 

This is what I was going to copy. @FM2015  Any advice appreciated, my sparks has no prior ICF experience so we are on this journey together. 
 

 

That's in the manual??!!

 

I appreciate that all this is going to get hidden but still. 

 

Practice, get the heat right for the blade type, don't melt more than required, 47mm deep plasterboard boxes give a neat finish and sparks love the extra space.

[FM2015]

Not the best pictures but all I've got to hand.

[BotusBuild]

That sir, is very neat 👍