New build - cold bedroom

[Littlebig]

Hi everyone, not so long ago we bought a new build. We’ve lived in it for a full summer and a full winter now and I was wondering if I can get a bit of help regarding few little “issues”. Our ground floor is quite warm unlike the first floor and the bedrooms just won’t retain heat for long. Master bedroom is a south facing and very warm when sunny, but the spare bedroom is a north facing and is absolutely freezing during the winter. Main problem though is once we put the heating on both rooms get warm but about 2hrs later the spare bedroom goes to about 17-18C from probs around 22-23C (it could drop to 16C sometimes if too cold). This will be a nursery from next month and I’m trying to get it sorted before the winter. I’m thinking there is either no insulation or not across the whole wall, just doesn’t make sense to be so cold otherwise. It is a semi detached house and this is the outside wall, it’s meant to be full fill insulation, but not sure what this means exactly. We have draught excluders on every door and I’m putting insulating film on the windows next week to trial (of course a bit late but there could be some cold nights still) and see if this will improve heat retention. The builder at the moment is not much help and I can’t be bothered waiting for them. I’m trying to find out at what stage of the build the insulation goes into the cavity as the estate is still developing and there are a fair amount of houses I can see the ground floor is nearly done, however no insulation in the cavity yet and wondering of they put it in at all, so if someone knows when the insulation is supposed to go it will be helpful. Also any idea why it could be cold, what we need to look for or to check and/or some suggestions how to make the rooms warmer or retain the heat for longer. Thanks.

[Makeitstop]

Is the bedroom above a garage?

 

[Makeitstop]

If the development is still ongoing, maybe a visit to sales office to ask if they can enquire about it with site manager.

 

Keep going every 48 hours and make a proper nuisance of yourself until you get their attention.

 

Have you checked state of left insulation?

 

If it comes to it, you can always employ someone to investigate cavity with scope. 

[Russdl]

@Littlebig  I guess the house is still under NHBC warranty? 
 

It sounds like it hasn’t been insulated to the levels required by building regulations - if at all -  in and around that bedroom. I’d kick up stink if I were you. 
 

Do you know anyone with a thermal camera?

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, Russdl said:

I’d kick up stink if I were you. 

+1, you won’t get anywhere being nice.

[Radian]

1 hour ago, Littlebig said:

it’s meant to be full fill insulation

 

Could be pumped in afterwards, or possibly not done at all. Even if filled, some types of full-fill cavity insulation can be unsuitable for exposed locations and if they get waterlogged can actually cool your house in the same way evaporative wine coolers work. How much wind/rain has the outside wall of your coldest room seen and what construction materials make up the cavity you're describing?

[Russell griffiths]

There are companies that specifically look at faults in new builds. Look one up and get them to investigate. 
it’s a shame it’s getting warmer. Get a thermal imaging camera thing, crank the heating up and stand outside to see where it is escaping. 
or set up a home made air test, set a fan to suck air out of the room and stand in the room hunting for the cold draught. 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Russdl said:

still under NHBC warranty? 

No expert, but I don't think NHBC covers this. It should but doesn't.

 

It will be a claim on workmanship, if you can show that it is faulty.

It is likely that the builder will deny or play for time..they (especially some major developers) are used to fobbing off inferior works.

 

Definitely the time to be a nuisance at sales, as who wants that discussion going on?

Also if your house is faulty other are likely to be too., as the same work gangs move round trade by trade.

So knock on every door.

 

I also suggest you get witnesses now, and some with building knowledge if possible.

And you must put it in writing , much as described to us, to the builder, and any other party involved in the sale.

[Russdl]

16 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

No expert, but I don't think NHBC covers this. It should but doesn't.

Also no expert and NHBC are just an insurance company (I think?) so they’ll try to dodge anything, but if the building hasn’t been built to the standard specified, which it sounds like it hasn’t, surely they have some responsibility?

[joe90]

10 hours ago, Radian said:

some types of full-fill cavity insulation can be unsuitable for exposed locations and if they get waterlogged can actually cool your house

All full fill cavity insulation should have a BBA certificate stating they don’t wick, I have rockwall batts full fill and had a water logged brick wall but the insulation stayed dry.

[PeterW]

7 hours ago, Russdl said:

Also no expert and NHBC are just an insurance company (I think?) so they’ll try to dodge anything, but if the building hasn’t been built to the standard specified, which it sounds like it hasn’t, surely they have some responsibility?

Depends - I’ve had them put in a missing soak away up to 8 years after build however the first 2 years they point you back at the developer so making a nuisance of yourself is the best approach. 
 

9 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

There are companies that specifically look at faults in new builds. Look one up and get them to investigate. 

Tend to not lift boards / drill holes etc as the house bashers can get a bit jumpy and have been known to accuse of making the problem occur or make it worse ..! Had a client who was accused by a site manager of removing the loft insulation from their new build once - even from the sealed void only visible with a camera ….. 

 

12 hours ago, Littlebig said:

however no insulation in the cavity yet and wondering of they put it in at all

Sounds like using blown bead or blown fibre - if it’s a new build it should have a guarantee from CIGA (Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency) in your handover pack. 

[Littlebig]

Thanks for all the replies. The bedroom is not above garage, it is above the kitchen. I don’t really talk to the builder, normally will report the issue online and someone will come and fix it, but I could and  do if they don’t act on the repairs or it needs an urgent response. Loft insulation looks ok, but I’m still to get a ladder to have a proper look. I was thinking of getting a company to survey the house and check for cold spots but it will cost around £400 which I could invest in a device that I will attach to my phone and do myself if really needed. I could do the fan test but it probably won’t be as cold now to come to a conclusion, however I will try the candle draught check as this will take no time. There is still over a year warranty left on the house from the builder so I believe I can always wait for the winter but ideally want this sorted before that. I will contact the builder and request a full survey and if they don't do it I’ll just hire a company and if there is something wrong will forward them the invoice.

[RobLe]

It’s definitely worth getting an IR thermometer, they’re only £20 or so.  I think even that could identify a significant issue - eg one wall or roof section 2C colder than another.  IR cameras cost quite a bit more, but are sometimes available to borrow for free - eg Cambridge Carbon Footprint will lend them out in winter for this purpose.  
I’d expect cold draughts to be worse downstairs than upstairs, ‘stack effect’ tends to convect that way.

Good luck, and keep at it!  We must get better in the UK at actually putting insulation in!  There should as standard be a check, and not just a paper excercise  - I’d like yearly kWh fuel use to be logged, and available like an EPC or mileage on an MOT.

[MikeGrahamT21]

Could be worth enlisting the help of a company like snagsure, they will give everything a once over and then persue  the builders to remediation 

[Makeitstop]

12 hours ago, Russdl said:

Also no expert and NHBC are just an insurance company (I think?) so they’ll try to dodge anything, but if the building hasn’t been built to the standard specified, which it sounds like it hasn’t, surely they have some responsibility?

 

NHBC only become invloved "after" any warranty period with more developers.

 

There is an entire industry set up around remedial works on new developments, but whether you get to the stage where you manage to get someone to come look at it remains to be seen. 

 

As said above, go in to sales office, preferably when potential new business is also in there and speak with the volume turned up to 11. Keep doing it if you get no joy.

 

Report back here in a week or two with progress. It's always interesting to hear how these outfits operate.

 

 

[Littlebig]

Hello again everyone,

 

As the winter and cold weather is approaching I am back with some of my problems… again.

The problem with the bedroom being cold is still present, however it’s early days to say how bad it can get as we haven’t seen minus temps yet.

The other problem we are coming across now is a high humidity in the room. We have a camera with a built in temp. and humidity sensor and apart from the summer I can’t remember seeing the humidity level below 70% (usually 75-78%) and it will only drop a bit when we put the heating on. I wonder what could be causing this as the other bedroom is around 60%?

Any ideas or suggestions on what could be wrong (if anything), please let me know.

Thank you.

 

[Radian]

you never go back to us with the status of your cavity insulation... 

On 11/04/2022 at 21:33, Radian said:

some types of full-fill cavity insulation can be unsuitable for exposed locations and if they get waterlogged can actually cool your house in the same way evaporative wine coolers work.

 

[MDC]

2 hours ago, Littlebig said:

Hello again everyone,

 

As the winter and cold weather is approaching I am back with some of my problems… again.

The problem with the bedroom being cold is still present, however it’s early days to say how bad it can get as we haven’t seen minus temps yet.

The other problem we are coming across now is a high humidity in the room. We have a camera with a built in temp. and humidity sensor and apart from the summer I can’t remember seeing the humidity level below 70% (usually 75-78%) and it will only drop a bit when we put the heating on. I wonder what could be causing this as the other bedroom is around 60%?

Any ideas or suggestions on what could be wrong (if anything), please let me know.

Thank you.

 

Hello,

 

I guess that bedroom has high humidity because the rest of the house is warmer, so the moist air is drawn to the cold space - same principle as moisture on a cold surface. 

 

What's the orientation of the room? My house is on a north/south axis, the bedroom on the north west corner is the coldest [except in the setting summer sun]. It also has an overhang and wooden French doors with a Juliet balcony. The walls are masonry and the walls over the overhang are timber frame - plenty of room for bad insulation.  All these factors make it colder than anywhere else. 

 

As your bedroom is over the kitchen, perhaps the extractor fan duct is in the ceiling/void and the sealing around the outside vent is poor, allowing a good draft to flow round between the floors. 

 

Does your bedroom feel like it has a cold floor?

 

We had a thermal survey done of the whole house. Missing plasterboard sealing was the key issue.  The warranty is with Protek, who said they don't insure for poor workmanship if the house doesn't fall down, or something like that.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas  for solutions.

[j_s]

Thermal imaging when it's cold should show the issues. Have you checked the loft insulation yet? The extractor ducting MDC mentioned is definitely something to look at too. You would be surprised at the total lack of care builders take on these sort of things. 

[Dave Jones]

On 11/04/2022 at 20:23, Littlebig said:

Hi everyone, not so long ago we bought a new build. We’ve lived in it for a full summer and a full winter now and I was wondering if I can get a bit of help regarding few little “issues”. Our ground floor is quite warm unlike the first floor and the bedrooms just won’t retain heat for long. Master bedroom is a south facing and very warm when sunny, but the spare bedroom is a north facing and is absolutely freezing during the winter. Main problem though is once we put the heating on both rooms get warm but about 2hrs later the spare bedroom goes to about 17-18C from probs around 22-23C (it could drop to 16C sometimes if too cold). This will be a nursery from next month and I’m trying to get it sorted before the winter. I’m thinking there is either no insulation or not across the whole wall, just doesn’t make sense to be so cold otherwise. It is a semi detached house and this is the outside wall, it’s meant to be full fill insulation, but not sure what this means exactly. We have draught excluders on every door and I’m putting insulating film on the windows next week to trial (of course a bit late but there could be some cold nights still) and see if this will improve heat retention. The builder at the moment is not much help and I can’t be bothered waiting for them. I’m trying to find out at what stage of the build the insulation goes into the cavity as the estate is still developing and there are a fair amount of houses I can see the ground floor is nearly done, however no insulation in the cavity yet and wondering of they put it in at all, so if someone knows when the insulation is supposed to go it will be helpful. Also any idea why it could be cold, what we need to look for or to check and/or some suggestions how to make the rooms warmer or retain the heat for longer. Thanks.

 

maybe worth getting a cheap endoscope camera and see whats in the cavity.

 

https://amzn.eu/d/i0gHe9A

 

 

[Littlebig]

Thanks for the replies everyone and apologies for the late update. I have no information about cavity insulation yet as I am waiting for the colder winter days to see if we will experience same issue as last year and request a survey from the builder. I have draught proofed all bedrooms and this has had an impact as during the few cold days recently temperature had stayed relatively same. With regards to the humidity level I bought these hygrometers and the readings are relatively same across the whole house, so I think the one we have on the camera is either too sensitive or just incorrect.

I am still to add a door at the bottom at stairs in the landing to stop/limit any cold draught/air from outside going up and after that will check what impact this will have on the upstairs temperature and will give an update.

[AliG]

Hi @Littlebig

 

I just found this thread.

 

Can you provide more info so people can maybe help more.

 

In general a north facing room will be colder than a south facing one. In my nouse the south facing rooms don't need any heating and the north facing ones do.

 

However, a properly insulated room should lose maybe 1-2C overnight. There are a lot of things that could impact this, but losing 5C over 2 hours as you described in your first post would definitely indicate something wrong.

 

That is such a high rate of heat loss that it is likely coming from a draught somewhere. As was mentioned a draught under the floorboards could be to blame, but it could be missing insulation, badly fitted windows etc.

 

It hasn't really been that cold yet where I am, so it may not have been cold enough for problems to show up yet.

 

So a few things -

 

1. Do you have a floorplan you can post? Assuming the house was bought from a major developer a link to the house style on line would be useful.

 

2. What kind of wall construction do you have? Full fill insulation suggests two layers of brick/blockwork with a cavity.

 

3. What kind of windows do you have? Standard would be UPVC double glazed. Standard would also be having weep vents in the frames.

 

4. When you say that you have draught proofed bedrooms what do you mean? In a new house the windows should not be draughty and you should not have to draught proof internal doors in a properly insulated house. However, if draughts are coming from unexpected  places then this would have an impact.

 

5. When you say the loft insulation looks OK, how much is there? it should be almost a foot thick to meet current regs.

 

I had a couple of spots in my house with issues behind the wall re insulation and an IR camera spotted them immediately if you can get your hands on one.

[Littlebig]

12 hours ago, AliG said:

Hi @Littlebig

 

I just found this thread.

 

Can you provide more info so people can maybe help more.

 

In general a north facing room will be colder than a south facing one. In my nouse the south facing rooms don't need any heating and the north facing ones do.

 

However, a properly insulated room should lose maybe 1-2C overnight. There are a lot of things that could impact this, but losing 5C over 2 hours as you described in your first post would definitely indicate something wrong.

 

That is such a high rate of heat loss that it is likely coming from a draught somewhere. As was mentioned a draught under the floorboards could be to blame, but it could be missing insulation, badly fitted windows etc.

 

It hasn't really been that cold yet where I am, so it may not have been cold enough for problems to show up yet.

 

So a few things -

 

1. Do you have a floorplan you can post? Assuming the house was bought from a major developer a link to the house style on line would be useful.

 

2. What kind of wall construction do you have? Full fill insulation suggests two layers of brick/blockwork with a cavity.

 

3. What kind of windows do you have? Standard would be UPVC double glazed. Standard would also be having weep vents in the frames.

 

4. When you say that you have draught proofed bedrooms what do you mean? In a new house the windows should not be draughty and you should not have to draught proof internal doors in a properly insulated house. However, if draughts are coming from unexpected  places then this would have an impact.

 

5. When you say the loft insulation looks OK, how much is there? it should be almost a foot thick to meet current regs.

 

I had a couple of spots in my house with issues behind the wall re insulation and an IR camera spotted them immediately if you can get your hands on one.

Hi @AliG, 

Thank you for your reply. Please see the requested information in the attached files.

My house is on the right and floor plan is for a left one but is exactly the same otherwise.

When I said draught proofed I meant all internal doors as the gap under some of them was fairly big.

The bedroom in question is a north facing one and I expect to be colder but the problem for me is why is not retaining heat. South facing bedroom is warmer and when its sunny outside we wouldn’t need to put heating on either.
Windows are standard as you mentioned with trickle vents and they were replaced when I first reported the heat loss to the builder.

Floor feels absolutely fine and when I had carpet removed for the wardrobe to be fitted checked around the skirting boards and could not find any issues.

I haven’t been in the loft yet but had the builder coming over to check the insulation and I had a look and could not spot a layer missing and it was very thick, but I’m in the process of getting a ladder fitted so I can get access to the loft when I need to.

Builder is a company called Gleeson and 

and they are known for building houses in not so good areas, so not a very reputable builder. Although when we were looking for a house checked the likes of Barratt Homes and Persimmon and speaking with friends who bought houses built by them their advice was to stay away from them and in fairness the issues we had with our house were something I could have fixed myself. For comparison we paid £60k less than we would have paid for a house from Barratt Homes we liked (yes Barratt was a bit bigger) but our plan is to buy a bigger house in 3 years anyway.

 

On another note last we had the heating on for about 30mins between 6pm & 6:30 and temperature in both bedrooms at 22:30 was about 21C. This morning (outside temp. around 3C) when the baby woke up at 6am temp. in her room was 18C with door closed all night and our bedroom was above 19C and bedroom door is open all night. I know the heat loss is actually not bad at all but I would expect our bedroom to be colder considering door is open.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Littlebig

[JohnMo]

2 hours ago, Littlebig said:

When I said draught proofed I meant all internal doors as the gap under some of them was fairly big.

Not a good idea to block these ventilation paths, as they are there for ventilation.

 

When you say they replaced the trickle vents on the windows, what did they replace then with, like for like or something different?

[AliG]

Thanks for the info posted.

 

As @JohnMo said normally you would not draught proof internal doors so that air can circulate. Also is the hall actually that much colder than the bedrooms?

 

Without an IR camera it is hard to tell if there is an issue in the walls. If there was an issue, once it is quite cold (like last night) the walls in the problem room would probably feel colder to the touch than in the other bedroom.

 

I would have though that the most likely place to lose heat is via cold air in the floor but this would probably impact both bedrooms equally.

 

TBH the temperature drop you mentioned last night is less concerning than what you mentioned at first. If you turned the heating off at 630pm and it got down to 3C outside then it would indeed cool down quite a bit in the bedroom. A well insulated self build might drop 1-2C over that period. Really in an average house I don't think you can expect to turn the heating off at 630pm and it still to be warm 12 hours later when it is 3C outside.

Your bedroom would have been warmer in the morning as you and your partner generate a lot more body heat than a baby.

 

Also you need to consider the construction of your house in how you run the heating. I assume that you have solid wet plastered walls if they are blockwork. When you turn on the heating, it will heat the air quickly as air holds a lot less heat than concrete. If you only had the heating on for half an hour the air would have likely heated up but not the walls. Then once you turn the heating off the walls will actually suck heat out of the air as their temperature equalises with the air. This would not happen so much in a timber frame house where the walls have less mass. If we were properly into winter and the heating had been on for a long period then the heat stored in the walls would actually help to keep the air temperature steadier, but when it first starts to get cold your house will take more heating to warm up the walls.