Another 'Cool Energy' heatpumps thread

[HughF]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster...

 

Now that the Cool Energy heatpumps have electronic expansions valves and VFD driven compressors/fans, do you think they represent a good purchase at the current retail price of £3k for a 'up to' 9kW unit?

 

Seems like quite a good offering although the warranty terms are the usual junk 'must be installed by an accredited installer' etc etc... The user manuals and installation diagrams aren't hidden behind a paywall/registration portal, which is encouraging. And these new units seem to have a separate 230v input for DHW or CH call for heat. I've emailed them to ask if the flow setpoint will automatically be changed depending on which call for heat is active, I assume so.

 

Thoughts? I'm considering throwing one up the garden to replace our wonderfully reliable baxi bermuda back boiler.

[ToughButterCup]

38 minutes ago, HughF said:

...

although the warranty terms are the usual junk 'must be installed by an accredited installer' etc etc...

...

 

Welcome.

Well, it depends on the precise terms of the warranty doesn't it? And that is related to the price. 

 

From the point of view the producer, consider the opposite:  '... can be installed by anyone ... ' means its plug and play.  But more expensive to produce.

I'm not arguing about the amount of the mark-up which attaches to accreditation. Nor about the statutory guarantee, in comparison to the warranty offered by the producer. 

May I suggest that there's more to accredited installation than meets the eye ? Producers' warranties need careful reading. And I can't remember the last time I bothered to read one.

 

[Fly100]

You should ask him if he has one in his own house. Im scepitcal of someone who doesnt use his own products. Im not undermining there products but find it odd they dont use them.

 

[HughF]

Nice quick reply from the supplier to some questions I fired over this morning:

 

1. DHW takes priority on all their heat pumps.

 

2. Weather comp applies even if the pump is running under a DHW call for heat. This seems like a limitation of the controller to be honest. Weather comp is either enabled or disabled.

 

The standard warranty is 12 months, extendable for another 12 months if it’s installed and serviced by an accredited installer. The 5yr only applies to the compressor. That’s my understanding from reading the warranty doc on their website.

 

Still, seems like a fair deal at the asking price. Build quality doesn’t look terrible from what I’ve seen of the older model on a certain danish youtubers video:

 

 

[Radian]

What do you make of this £1400 ASHP ? I haven't got around to contacting them for more details but I doubt it's any good. They also do a range of pool heaters which I think is there main business judging by the site graphics. But these are in a separate section for home space heating.

[HughF]

1 hour ago, Radian said:

What do you make of this £1400 ASHP ? I haven't got around to contacting them for more details but I doubt it's any good. They also do a range of pool heaters which I think is there main business judging by the site graphics. But these are in a separate section for home space heating.

Generic aliexpress sourced junk, shifted by a generic box shifter.... Yes it will make hot water, but expect it to be scrap after 4 years in the typical UK climate.

 

I mean, it's cheap, but I'd say the Cool Energy inverter driven models, with european controls and EEVs are a better buy at twice the price.

[ProDave]

4 hours ago, HughF said:

Cool Energy heatpumps have electronic expansions valves

Anyone care to tell us what an Electronic Expansion Valve is?  I don't think mu heat pump has one but it seems to manage without. 

[HughF]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

Anyone care to tell us what an Electronic Expansion Valve is?  I don't think mu heat pump has one but it seems to manage without. 

PWM driven solenoid valve - nothing more. I guess the controller can modulate the expansion vs a fixed expansion rate as you'd get in a capillary tube.

 

EDIT: Nice video from YouTube:

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by HughF

[Wil]

21 hours ago, Fly100 said:

You should ask him if he has one in his own house. Im scepitcal of someone who doesnt use his own products. Im not undermining there products but find it odd they dont use them.

 

 

He told me he did before I bought one...

 

Had a few long chats with the owner before I signed up.

[Conor]

Myself and @dpmiller have one. 

 

mine is still in its box 9months after I bought it so can't comment... But David has had his up and running for a while and is detailed in his blog.

[Wil]

1 minute ago, Conor said:

Myself and @dpmiller have one. 

 

mine is still in its box 9months after I bought it so can't comment... But David has had his up and running for a while and is detailed in his blog.

So does @Marvin I believe.

[HughF]

5 hours ago, Conor said:

Myself and @dpmiller have one. 

 

mine is still in its box 9months after I bought it so can't comment... But David has had his up and running for a while and is detailed in his blog.

I've found the relevant posts, thanks. Interesting that it was the choice of Carel controls/EEV/Inverter that swayed David to this manufacturer. Nice to see some pictures of the internals in his thread too.

 

As I said, tempted.... Just need to decide on a DHW strategy that doesn't utilise a UVC, no space anywhere near the bathroom for one. The wife wants the old cylinder cupboard for something else.

 

Tempted to couple it to my 500ltr TS that I was going to heat with an anthracite boiler (before I got bored of the idea of burning stuff), stuff that out in the outhouse, and run a PHX off the side of it for DHW.

 

 

[Marvin]

On 06/04/2022 at 10:47, HughF said:

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster...

 

Now that the Cool Energy heatpumps have electronic expansions valves and VFD driven compressors/fans, do you think they represent a good purchase at the current retail price of £3k for a 'up to' 9kW unit?

 

Seems like quite a good offering although the warranty terms are the usual junk 'must be installed by an accredited installer' etc etc... The user manuals and installation diagrams aren't hidden behind a paywall/registration portal, which is encouraging. And these new units seem to have a separate 230v input for DHW or CH call for heat. I've emailed them to ask if the flow setpoint will automatically be changed depending on which call for heat is active, I assume so.

 

Thoughts? I'm considering throwing one up the garden to replace our wonderfully reliable baxi bermuda back boiler.

Hi @HughF and @Fly100Yes we have a Cool Energy inverTech Air Source Heat Pump CE-iVT9 4.3kW-9.5kW installed in May last year.  I did not know that it had electronic expansions valves! Not had a problem so far. The people were very helpful. I would learn as much as possible about how ASHP's work to understand how to get the best from one. By flow set point did you mean the flow rate or temperature? On ours the temperature changes to what is set for the hot water or the heating when doing the hot water or heating. We actually use the weather compensation setting. If your going to swap a boiler for a ASHP you'd better check on the emitter (radiators) requirement as the lower the water temp the bigger the emitter to keep the same temp!  since the 5th of Jan 70 days averaging 11.3kWh a day for heating and hot water, 2 people, 20C average 24 hour internal temperature, 100m2 floor.

 

Good luck.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Marvin

[HughF]

30 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Hi @HughF and @Fly100Yes we have a Cool Energy inverTech Air Source Heat Pump CE-iVT9 4.3kW-9.5kW installed in May last year.  I did not know that it had electronic expansions valves! Not had a problem so far. The people were very helpful. I would learn as much as possible about how ASHP's work to understand how to get the best from one. By flow set point did you mean the flow rate or temperature? On ours the temperature changes to what is set for the hot water or the heating when doing the hot water or heating. We actually use the weather compensation setting. If your going to swap a boiler for a ASHP you'd better check on the emitter (radiators) requirement as the lower the water temp the bigger the emitter to keep the same temp!  since the 5th of Jan 70 days averaging 11.3kWh a day for heating and hot water, 2 people, 20C average 24 hour internal temperature, 100m2 floor.

 

Good luck.

I'm well aware of how heat pumps work and how to get the best out of them....  I'm looking to gut the whole heating system out of this place and re-plumb the whole lot. Probably manifold it because I've got the manifolds, and I've been accumulating tail ends of 16mm MLCP off facebook as and when. 25mm mlcp to the manifolds, 16mm to the rads. Aint got time for copper anymore.

 

I meant flow temperature... But the supplier has confirmed my questions about that.

 

11.3kWh/day is fantastic, what size DHW cylinder are you heating with that? 

 

The Cool Energy product caught my eye as a half decent chinese offering that might give good performance, in a stainless case, that isn't stupidly priced. These things shouldn't be expensive, after all they're just a fridge

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by HughF

[Marvin]

7 minutes ago, HughF said:

I'm well aware of how heat pumps work and how to get the best out of them....  I'm looking to gut the whole heating system out of this place and re-plumb the whole lot. Probably manifold it because I've got the manifolds, and I've been accumulating tail ends of 16mm MLCP off facebook as and when. 25mm mlcp to the manifolds, 16mm to the rads. Aint got time for copper anymore.

 

I meant flow temperature... But the supplier has confirmed my questions about that.

 

11.3kWh/day is fantastic, what size DHW cylinder are you heating with that? 

 

The Cool Energy product caught my eye as a half decent chinese offering that might give good performance, in a stainless case, that isn't stupidly priced. These things shouldn't be expensive, after all they're just a fridge

 

205 litre tank 60ltr buffer. Both highly insulated.

[Radian]

2 hours ago, HughF said:

These things shouldn't be expensive, after all they're just a fridge

 

I do like the specification of the inverTech but I'm afraid it's still overpriced. Just for example, you can find a 18KW-24kw SS cased Inverter driven ASHP with electronic expansion valves on alibaba at $1400.

 

I know it might as well be on the Moon but the the seller probably isn't a registered charity. Materials-wise I've already totalled up the component costs at around £600 for a typical small ASHP at the factory gate. I think this is validated by the fact that air-to-air systems and some pool heaters retail in this kind of ball-park. There's just such a huge cashing-in going on on our domestic market.

 

 

Sorry peeps. Just me venting.

[HughF]

Cool, I’ll get mine from Alibaba then. Don’t need no stinking warranty, and I buy from alibaba weekly for work, so dealing with mainland china is a walk in the park for me.

 

In all seriousness, there is some serious cashing in going on, as you say. Shame really…

Edited April 7, 2022 by HughF

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, Radian said:

There's just such a huge cashing-in going on on our domestic market

When you buy a product from a reputable manufacturer, you are usually buying into the after sales service.  It is nice to be able to get spare parts in a few years time, and you can tap into the knowledge base.

39 minutes ago, HughF said:

Cool, I’ll get mine from Alibaba then. Don’t need no stinking warranty, and I buy from alibaba weekly for work, so dealing with mainland china is a walk in the park for me.

Tempted to get one myself.

[HughF]

Phnix look decent, but expensive...

 

Aircal also look pretty good, more reasonably priced...

 

Sprsun build their units with Carel parts and panasonic compressors...

 

I will start a avenue of discussion with some sellers and report back...

Edited April 7, 2022 by HughF

[Marvin]

Having recently purchased some expensive equipment from china, please be aware anything over about £135 now has a serious amount of inport tax added by the courier when it enters the UK.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Marvin

[HughF]

6 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Having recently purchased some expensive equipment from china, please be aware anything over about £135 now has a serious amount of inport tax added by the courier when it enters the UK.

Well aware of how this works Marvin, I'm the chief buyer for my company and we import to the value of about 50k/year at the moment from China...

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, HughF said:

Well aware of how this works Marvin, I'm the chief buyer for my company and we import to the value of about 50k/year at the moment from China...

👍

[Radian]

1 hour ago, HughF said:

Cool, I’ll get mine from Alibaba then. Don’t need no stinking warranty, and I buy from alibaba weekly for work, so dealing with mainland china is a walk in the park for me.

 

In all seriousness, there is some serious cashing in going on, as you say. Shame really…

 

35 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

When you buy a product from a reputable manufacturer, you are usually buying into the after sales service.  It is nice to be able to get spare parts in a few years time, and you can tap into the knowledge base

 

The model I'm thinking of is small CO² Laser Cutters. They are pretty much all assembled in china, big sheet metal boxes with a handful of standard components like NEMA stepper motors and HV PSU's and, of course, the big glass tube. The almost exact same looking product is then sold by a few 'reputable' US or European companies. With warranties, and sometimes better microcontroller boards. But at 5 x the price.

 

I wanted one but £2k vs. £400 from Ali was no contest. The thing arrived from China on a palette and was workable. About £100 in replacement parts over the 6 years or so still seems like a bargain. The key is to have enough standard components in the product and then DIY service the thing. It requires intimate knowledge of how it works and a particular attitude towards time vs money. But sometimes the stars can align.

[HughF]

2 minutes ago, Radian said:

 

 

The model I'm thinking of is small CO² Laser Cutters. They are pretty much all assembled in china, big sheet metal boxes with a handful of standard components like NEMA stepper motors and HV PSU's and, of course, the big glass tube. The almost exact same looking product is then sold by a few 'reputable' US or European companies. With warranties, and sometimes better microcontroller boards. But at 5 x the price.

 

I wanted one but £2k vs. £400 from Ali was no contest. The thing arrived from China on a palette and was workable. About £100 in replacement parts over the 6 years or so still seems like a bargain. The key is to have enough standard components in the product and then DIY service the thing. It requires intimate knowledge of how it works and a particular attitude towards time vs money. But sometimes the stars can align.

My friend did the same with a fibre laser... much cheaper from China and all built with branded parts. 

 

Part of the attraction to move away from gas is to remove the requirement for me to get somebody with a gas safe cert to service the appliance. I can touch every other bit of plumbing in the house, so adding the heat pump into that list would be beneficial from a servicing point of view.

[HughF]

Anyway, to drag this thread back in the correct direction...

 

I'd like to thank those who own these units for dropping by and posting their findings, and for putting their information up on their own threads for others to find. It has been good to see what you have done with your installs.

 

These units seems decent, with a fair spec for a fair price (compared to the other offerings). Vat at 5% would be nice though, as I'm not registered for VAT.

 

It's going to be a hard sell to my wife, as she has her heart set on a combi (we don't have a large DHW requirement and she wants to get the cylinder cupboard removed and used for other things)... If gas goes up to 10p/kWh later this year and electricity stays at 28, it's a no brainer, we're getting an ASHP. But will we see gas go up that high?

 

Self installed solar next... on our large, south facing, roof...