For designers; it makes me really sad the terrible choices people make

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I am not so sure, isn't that more a case of what is offered, rather than what is wanted.

Not having a TV means you miss out on all the delightful? programmes where people want to change the layout of their houses to create these spaces. Nowt as strange as folk.

[CharlieKLP]

1 hour ago, Adsibob said:

i guess you could try focusing on "show don't tell". It's tricky though. People are often set in their ways and many aspects of design might be thought of as subjective, even though once people's own biases and experiences are filtered out, there is often an objectively better design when one compares two.

That’s a good idea. I do try to slowly show ideas through sketches but maybe focusing on that is the solution. People can be more a part of it that way too. But like you say, people go too far into it and make decisions before knowing the options. I think because designing houses is exciting!

[Adsibob]

22 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

That’s a good idea. I do try to slowly show ideas through sketches but maybe focusing on that is the solution. People can be more a part of it that way too. But like you say, people go too far into it and make decisions before knowing the options. I think because designing houses is exciting!

The best experience i had with an architect was when he would sketch in front of me (or on zoom) using a digital sketching tool so that lines could be undone really easily. He would start sketching and get our initial impressions and then undo and redo whilst in the meeting with us so that his sketch was a somewhat iterative process. He could also mark-up existing drawings to show us the different ways of amending them, again being able to very quickly undo and redo anything we weren't too keen on. In this way he could take on board our feedback almost instantaneously, making the process much more collaborative. It would stop him going on what we perceived as a massive tangent to the original design brief or what we had in mind, thereby avoiding big wastes of time on said tangents.

[Indy]

I'm going to add my comments here since I've been engaged in a bit of back and forth with some of the posters on here, on my own thread in the new build form (where my design was knocked quite a bit).

 

To answer your original question, there is one simple answer. You have to be good at sales. You can design the most brilliant houses but if you can't sell them to your clients then they're not getting built. Sometimes its as simple as laying out the rationale for your design choices, other times its going to be make your clients realise that what they want vs what they need are 2 separate things.

 

I also agree firmly with the advice on this thread that people who want to self build often do so because they can't find anything on the general market that meets their needs. Which means hundreds of properties viewed, rejected and through that process - usually a good list of what works and what doesn't for them. If you automatically assume that people don't know what they want and they should go with what you're recommending - you've lost before even getting started.

 

You may find the odd example of someone who will go with a completely new design, but people are people and confirmation bias is a real thing. They will want to work with someone who gives them what they want, calls them brilliant and praises their 'design nous'.

 

[CharlieKLP]

58 minutes ago, Indy said:

I'm going to add my comments here since I've been engaged in a bit of back and forth with some of the posters on here, on my own thread in the new build form (where my design was knocked quite a bit).

 

To answer your original question, there is one simple answer. You have to be good at sales. You can design the most brilliant houses but if you can't sell them to your clients then they're not getting built. Sometimes its as simple as laying out the rationale for your design choices, other times its going to be make your clients realise that what they want vs what they need are 2 separate things.

 

I also agree firmly with the advice on this thread that people who want to self build often do so because they can't find anything on the general market that meets their needs. Which means hundreds of properties viewed, rejected and through that process - usually a good list of what works and what doesn't for them. If you automatically assume that people don't know what they want and they should go with what you're recommending - you've lost before even getting started.

 

You may find the odd example of someone who will go with a completely new design, but people are people and confirmation bias is a real thing. They will want to work with someone who gives them what they want, calls them brilliant and praises their 'design nous'.

 

Thanks Indy, by the way I was not thinking directly about your thread when I made this thread at all and in no way meant to drag you in. I would like to improve my customer experience irl, and I also get more out of the process if I am able to give more input.

I really think that’s a great point. You have to sell the idea. Now I am the worst salesperson there is, I tell people quite brashly what I think. It’s certainly something I’m working on! To make them think the good ideas are theirs is a skill I only seem to manage in work meetings and with my family lol.

 

also thanks again for taking the criticism so well, and you know, sticking with your guns I do respect that and hope it pays off genuinely.

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[Ajn]

39 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

You have to sell the idea.

The thing that appears to be missing from all these posts is mention of the third and ruling party in these designs. The one that has the ultimate say.... the Planning Officer.

 

We had our view and requirements,. The achitect added in the well... have you thought of this or that etc and presents a plan that we can try. He adds "it may work if the local planner is busy but we may need plan B". ... we used plan B.

A good architect also needs to be able to sell to the client that he understands the clients requirements but needs to be able to work the planning process for the best interest of the client.

[Indy]

 

 

1 hour ago, CharlieKLP said:

I really think that’s a great point. You have to sell the idea. Now I am the worst salesperson there is, I tell people quite brashly what I think. It’s certainly something I’m working on! To make them think the good ideas are theirs is a skill I only seem to manage in work meetings and with my family lol.

 

Getting good at sales sounds much easier than it actually is. Some of the best sales people I've known don't do any active selling and certainly none of the pushy double glazing tactics. You start by building trust, showing that you understand the client, identify their pain points and then propose the solution. Your solution may not be the only solution, but if it resolves their problem by being in the right place at the right time (and roughly at the right cost), the client will usually be tripping over themselves to give you their money.

 

There's all the usual psychology stuff around EQ, emotional intelligence, empathy, building and nurturing relationships, giving more than taking out - some of which may not directly apply to a transactional relationship like the one with architects, as they're usually engaged for a singular purpose.

 

 

[CharlieKLP]

33 minutes ago, Indy said:

 

 

 

Getting good at sales sounds much easier than it actually is. Some of the best sales people I've known don't do any active selling and certainly none of the pushy double glazing tactics. You start by building trust, showing that you understand the client, identify their pain points and then propose the solution. Your solution may not be the only solution, but if it resolves their problem by being in the right place at the right time (and roughly at the right cost), the client will usually be tripping over themselves to give you their money.

 

There's all the usual psychology stuff around EQ, emotional intelligence, empathy, building and nurturing relationships, giving more than taking out - some of which may not directly apply to a transactional relationship like the one with architects, as they're usually engaged for a singular purpose.

 

 

Well no, but I ordered that book @Thedreamer recommended and it looks like a start. While I’m never going to charm anyone, I certainly am very happy to talk to people about design. 
 

Also, I’m helped by a lot of ‘non pushy’ type sales and marketing people. Maybe we just need them to sell the design side more. Being sales types, they don’t understand or care for the *value* of design, only material and tangible things.

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, Gone West said:

programmes where people want to change the layout of their houses to create these spaces.

Watches one at my Mother's a while back. People looking at flats in the sun.

They loved the view from one of the balconies, was nothing special, but probably better than wherever they crawled out from.

Wish they had filmed it at head height, when sitting in a chair. They may have realised that all they see is a concrete wall. (expletive deleted)ing moron architect.

[CharlieKLP]

Lmao

 

love that show, Place in the Sun? Jeff and Linda are looking for a villa for 10k in Spain, Jeff is a fat man with a big red nose, Linda is a leathery skinned woman, they are both civil servants.

 

they are shown a villa with sea views and a pool.

 

”it’s a bit too Spanish for us”.
voiceover tells us Jeff and Linda are still looking. End credits.

[SteamyTea]

13 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

”it’s a bit too Spanish for us”.
voiceover tells us Jeff and Linda are still looking. End credits

Offer them your creative solutions.

Can get a half decent holiday mobile home on Canvey Island for that. They have pulled down Shellhaven Refinery now, so lovely views of East London.

[7dayworker]

We need good architects who can build a wow house like older houses . I walked down expensive roads and don’t see beauty. I know several with lovely interiors., boxy exteriors. Look at awards etc . Those 100k houses or perfect house tv series show the cost of build and value of design, but they are so supported by the series. 
our small group don’t feel architects think enough about  our needs . 
Let’s see how good my architect is at problem solving.

[Alan Ambrose]

I know this is an old thread but here is my take:

 

+ cultivate a thick skin - it's not actually about you ... it is all about helping people to design better houses that they like.

+ all clients are different. LISTEN to them and try to understand their stated goals and their unstated goals. Get a sense of what styles of design they like and what they don't.

+ self builders by definition are confident enough to build their own houses. Some of them might be great designers too, some of them might not. Be open minded. They might have great ideas that you have never come across.

+ get a list of trusted professionals in other fields engineers, builders, ground works, CAD people, lawyers etc etc etc. Agree on mutual referrals.

+ (once you've decided you can't help particular clients) - send 'trace my plan' only enquirers to the cheap trusted CAD guy.

+ if you hate your new clients or their sense of design, refer them to other architects who might be more suitable. You can screen for this somewhat in the initial telephone call.

+ if you only want to work with like minded design professionals rather than private clients, you probably need a job in a big architectural practice, working on commercial rather than self build. 

 

+ treat any info your clients bring you (including their sketch plans) as input to the design process.

+ for the 'trace my plan' clients, identify 3 or 4 things (for free) that will help improve their design. Explain these things and see whether the clients like your ideas (and therefore want to engage you). If not, refer them to other people (but ask yourself, if you're such a great architect, why you can't come up with a few ideas that these clients like). You will establish your worth when e.g. (a) you suggest something they love and that they have not thought of before or (b) you save them a bunch of money or planning hassle or get a project approved by the planners that has previously been rejected.

+ treat you work as a collaboration with your clients. You are not the final arbiter of design, they are. They achieve this right by choosing to employ you and accepting your ideas or rejecting them.

 

+ realise you provide a collection of services of which design is only one part. e.g. familiarity with the planning and planners in your part of the country / access to other good professionals / steering through the planning process / project management / liaison with builders etc etc etc. Recognise that any project may need a particular subset of those skills - including, for instance, no design input at all.

 

 

Imagine you were a GP instead of an architect. The analogous problem is that many of your patients can't or won't take your advice to sort out their lifestyles and therefore improve their heath. You know how to maintain a healthy body, but they have their own ideas and they don't seem to listen. You find that deeply frustrates you. You have two options - (a) either roll with it and try to find mechanisms to help them anyway or (b) find a job where you only deal with fit clients (sports medicine maybe).

 

And, I hope you don't mind me saying this - lighten up - it's only a job after all. Do solicitors stress about whether clients 'truly value their legal input'? Or do they just do their work to the best of their ability.

 

Alan

 

 

 

[Kelvin]

Before we decided on the house plan we are building we went to an architect. The first words out of his mouth were “we can design you an award winning house on this plot”. What I heard was we can design an award winning house for our practice. It put me right off from the start. 
 

In the end we are building a very traditional Scottish Longhouse with a lean to porch. It’s simple, straightforward and some will say pretty boring. After all it’s two rectangles joined together. There’s no fancy wow factor staircase, in fact the staircase is hidden. The design maximises the available floorspace so no long corridors with rooms off. We had a fancy galleried staircase in the previous house. It did have that wow factor as the hallway was 30’x17’ and 17’ ceiling and the staircase was up the middle to a west bedroom wing and an east bedroom wing. And as lovely as it was it was a huge amount of wasted space. 

[saveasteading]

On 14/02/2022 at 16:08, Indy said:

Some of the best sales people I've known don't do any active selling

That is true once you have credibility and people are contacting you.

The knowledge and experience do the selling.

But sitting by the phone or looking for non-existing emails will not get business.

I started business with a partner who was 10% Engineer ad 90% sales, and he would phone /visit possible clients and connections all day.

I just couldn't do that, due to some sort of shyness/modesty/ lack of skill.

Once there was a job the clients wanted me not him, so it worked.

 

Later, when he had departed, the phone rang anyway, and my sales were through networking.

 

I recall a client telling me at the opening ceremony that he recalled our first discussion.

He phoned me asking if we were interested in x.   I apparently was comfortable to talk about it, but not excited ' I will have a look and see if it suits us'. whereas all the other contacts were selling like md, and could do absolutely anything, and meet him tomorrow.  If only I had known that, then the negotiating period would have been less stressful.

 

But if work becomes less plentiful, then the sales oriented businesses tend to do better.

 

It is part of an Architect's training to sell themselves. We Engineers  are more inclined to deal with what is in front of us.

I once did a presentation to a school board, after which the Head thanked me for my clarity and honesty......so what had the competition been saying?

Is that selling?

 

[markc]

Sounds very like us, we don’t advertise, we dont cold call, we dont follow up or chase anyone. I’m technical Director and have often been referred to as the Sales Avoidance Officer but our customers respect an honest opinion.

[jack]

I had to help our sales team during a startup I was involved with many years ago. I was basically the industry specialist who knew the details of the business we operated in, and got wheeled in when potential clients got the point of asking questions beyond what was in the salespeople's flowcharts.

 

Some of our salespeople used to get frustrated with me answering questions honestly, because the honest answer sometimes involved acknowledging the existence of a compromise.

 

However, what we were offering had massive advantages to the average potential customer, and my opinion was that if anyone was going to get hung up on the inevitable slight compromises that led to us being able to offer these advantages, we probably didn't want them as a customer.

 

Interestingly, our most successful salespeople were never the ones who had issues with me being honest.  

[SteamyTea]

53 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

We Engineers  are more inclined to deal with what is in front of us.

When I started lecturing, it was as a user of IT, not someone that was a trained person, or someone just thrown in due to lack of staff.

In the early days I was teaching the ECDL. Basic stuff.

My colleagues used to do the interesting stuff first, so Word, Excel and PowerPoint.

I started with File Management.

Never had to find where a student had left something.

Payed dividends when doing Access, a files inside a file, but not called that. My students understood it.

 

[Carrerahill]

24 minutes ago, jack said:

Some of our salespeople used to get frustrated with me answering questions honestly, because the honest answer sometimes involved acknowledging the existence of a compromise.

I worked for a multinational conglomerate in their engineering division, essentially we designed solutions for clients, however, as part of the divisions within the firm we would sometimes spec our own equipment, this usually then led to someone from the sales department of said division calling us and wanting to get involved, we often tried to keep them out of it because we designed a suitable solution, not a solution based on a product we happened to sell. Anyway, we got involved with them and we ended up having some meetings with the client, an account manager flew in and we went to the meeting where I presented the solution, she just kept looking at me as if to say "what the hell are you doing" because I was using different manufacturers and advising against one system for another etc. 

 

Later in the car on the way back home I said to her, "I am an engineer, I will propose, to the best of my knowledge and abilities, a solution that best meets the British regs, and the needs, standards and budget of my client". She took it quite well and I also gave her technical feedback on their product as to why they were not suitable and she finally agreed with me, but I bet she is still trying to sell a product that might not actually be the ideal solution! 

[CharlieKLP]

Thanks for the tips and stuff, really enjoy reading all this design discussion. 
 

Since I first posted I got a new job with a practice that had a good design reputation and it’s been much better (for me!)

 

I think the designs where I was before were attracting people with low expectations. Fine for them, but not where I want to be.

[Kelvin]

Show us an example of good design from your perspective? (Or show us one of your designs) 

 

I don’t have a design gene in my body. I just take a practical approach to everything. Fortunately I live with someone who has a more discerning eye. 

[Adsibob]

9 hours ago, Kelvin said:

it was a huge amount of wasted space. 

Architecturally, it’s difficult to waste space. An architect sculpts space into positive and negative space, and hopefully creates something that is both highly functional and very pleasing to the eye and relates to is environment in a meaningful way - that is what I would define as good design. In my view, negative space is almost as important as positive space, sometimes more so.

[CharlieKLP]

I generally just like things to be beautiful or useful you know? 
 

If there’s a feature I want to make the most of it, and if there’s a layout that works with a nice use of spaces then I’m for it. In terms of what the house looks like, I like it to be all in the same style and balanced. 
 

I like this one. I obviously didn’t design it, but I think it’s fab and I understand it. Great spaces, clear ideas, nice shape and textures, good.
 

[Kelvin]

Yes sure I have had negative space explained to me (father in law is an architect) The staircase wasn’t a focal point with the negative space around it.  It was an ugly staircase poorly positioned that drew your eye away from what was the wow factor which was the height and shape of the ceiling and the volume of room. The way staircase was done was wasted space as far as I was concerned. 

[Adsibob]

53 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Yes sure I have had negative space explained to me (father in law is an architect) The staircase wasn’t a focal point with the negative space around it.  It was an ugly staircase poorly positioned that drew your eye away from what was the wow factor which was the height and shape of the ceiling and the volume of room. The way staircase was done was wasted space as far as I was concerned. 

Fair enough. That does sound like a waste.