ASHP " buffer "?

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

So, I need to try to understand firstly, going back a big step, what is being pumped.... where. And once known where..... then why.

Water … H20… Dihydrogen Oxide…

 

The reason this is not an issue is that there is no refrigerant unit inside the property (think a fridge) and no frost protect required to make this unit “do stuff” as the monoblock unit outside has 98% of the moving parts of your current system. 
 

The only thing left inside is a bog standard circulator - these things are virtually silent, and by that I mean they make less noise than a mouse farting. 
 

Finally… acoustic box can be built around this if all else fails and the mouse is particularly flatulent as it will also insulate the bits inside. 

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Don't over complicate yourself with the detail of what they are fitting.  Your objective is a quiet system that you can live with.  just make it clear they can fit whatever they require to make the system function as it should and within it's warranty BUT if it make a noise to the point of disturbing your sleep like the old system then you WILL be complaining again and expecting a resolution,.

Hi ProDave, missed this reply. Great advice, but as Ive had so much info accounting to drivel from them ( " these new boards to fit today.. i promise will resolve noise" is just 1 eg, of many promises of resolving it.. finally giving up ) I can only make the decision off my own back.

 

I just can't cope with another 2 year fight, if this one ( specifically if this bedroom cupboard tank's pump ) produces the same overnight problems. It will affect my health then, the stress of it. I could only just turn it off once & for all, & boil kettle water etc.

 

So I hsve another exhaustive battle to try understanding it, what it actually is, does, when, compared to the problem hardware in this location now. I have to get answers, can only do so myself, not just asking them: who seem incompetently unsble to provide an snswer. Hence asking for help here, possible clarification, a long shot as no-one has this system, no-one has a clue about how bad the overnight frost mode noise is.

[zoothorn]

50 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Water … H20… Dihydrogen Oxide…

 

The reason this is not an issue is that there is no refrigerant unit inside the property (think a fridge) and no frost protect required to make this unit “do stuff” as the monoblock unit outside has 98% of the moving parts of your current system. 
 

The only thing left inside is a bog standard circulator - these things are virtually silent, and by that I mean they make less noise than a mouse farting. 
 

Finally… acoustic box can be built around this if all else fails and the mouse is particularly flatulent as it will also insulate the bits inside. 

Hi Peter. So Vaillant telling me that this inside frost mode pump, pumps water around for the reason of aiding the outside hardware, the ( only ) hardware susceptible to frost... this is not true then? 
 

IE no water from this pumped circulatory action.... no water..... exits the house at all?

[SteamyTea]

You are not going to get a frosted up system at night as you always turn the system off then.

You will get a cold house, so you will be fighting that battle later.

[PeterW]

The buffer is a bIg tank holding probably 80-100 litres of water. There will be 2 pumps - one internal and one external and the internal one will only circulate water in the house and the one to the monoblock may well circulate warm water back to the monoblock to stop frost issues. I’d need to see the full schematic but tbh this is a better solution than the split unit. 

[zoothorn]

53 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Water … H20… Dihydrogen Oxide…

 

The reason this is not an issue is that there is no refrigerant unit inside the property (think a fridge) and no frost protect required to make this unit “do stuff” as the monoblock unit outside has 98% of the moving parts of your current system. 
 

The only thing left inside is a bog standard circulator - these things are virtually silent, and by that I mean they make less noise than a mouse farting. 
 

Finally… acoustic box can be built around this if all else fails and the mouse is particularly flatulent as it will also insulate the bits inside. 

But Peter you see this happens with - your- system, mouselike non intrusive noise.
 

But I have outlined, many many times, a clear picture of my ( albeit current ) circulatory frost mode conditions... which are so far removed from your lovely quiet system there, as can possibly be described. 

 

The potential problems are twofold; A) the new system shares the same anti- frost software, which implies it will also go on/ off/ on/ off incessantly allthrough the night/ small hours too. And B) the new system which I was told chosen because the new "problem cupboard box" would be relocated well away from bedrooms, & it "wouldn't be as loud" ( yeah right.. ), now Im just told.. includes a tank with a pump which can only physically go back in the very spot where Ive had the problems, negating the whole rationale for choosing this new system it seems to me.
 

AND once I ask what on earth this tank actually is, Im told ( almost ironically, but not a joke afaict ) it's to facilitate the bloody frost mode. The very mode causing me the problems, solely, & only ever coming on in it's loudly audible, & incessantly irritating way it does, overnight.

[PeterW]

Ok. These are different things and you cannot mix them up. The current hydrobox has a lot of moving parts and includes at least one pump plus other components that “make noise”. This is a water tank and a pump that circulates water - I’ve just tried to record the sound it makes but tbh is so quiet that I can’t…!! 
 

Software is irrelevant here - you need to let them replace the lot and then it will be easier to understand if there are other inherent issues with your property. 
 

Who is doing the install ..? Is it Vaillant ..?

[zoothorn]

20 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

You are not going to get a frosted up system at night as you always turn the system off then.

You will get a cold house, so you will be fighting that battle later.

ST, this is confusing as " turning the system off overnight" can be twofold ( so I don't know which you refer to):

 

1. Using the controls, setting the system to become not radiator hot, to subdue it overnight.. but not to cut-it's mains electricity into it. 
 

or
 

2. Going to the big red plastic switch, located awkwardly because you're not supposed to get at it really, & each night (during a cold patch that is, the only time the damn frost mode is likely to kick in ).. at 11pm turn the WHOLE system off: this means at 8 am when I wake, the system is off, until, I go to the huge switch again... & turn it all on (then I have to press 'reset' too). THIS is how i have to use the current system. Cold house until system gets back into the swing, say 5hrs past 8 am. No heat in house until 3 pm. THIS is unacceptable. This has been agreed etc etc.

 

You see I do not know which scenario you mean by ' turn it off at night'.

 

Then I don't understand your point of the post. Surely if I turn itoff at night.. I am MORE likely that it frosts up...gecause it hasn't been on, therefore the wretched anti frost mode hasn't been in effect = frost.

 

I am continually baffled by all this. Zh

Edited February 8, 2022 by zoothorn

[Marvin]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

ST, this is confusing as " turning the system off overnight" can be twofold ( so I don't know which you refer to):

 

1. Using the controls, setting the system to become not radiator hot, to subdue it overnight.. but not to cut-it's mains electricity into it. 
 

or
 

2. Going to the big red plastic switch, located awkwardly because you're not supposed to get at it really, & each night (during a cold patch that is, the only time the damn frost mode is likely to kick in ).. at 11pm turn the WHOLE system off: this means at 8 am when 

I wake, the system is off, until, I go to the huge switch again... & turn it all on (then I have to press 'reset' too). THIS is how 

i have to use the current system. Cold house until system gets back into the swing, say 5hrs past 8 am. No heat in house until 3 pm. THIS is unacceptable. This has been agreed etc etc.

 

You see I do not know which scenario you mean by ' turn it off at night'.

 

Then I don't understand your point of the post. Surely if I turn itoff at night.. I am MORE likely that it frosts up...gecause it hasn't been on, therefore the wretched anti frost mode hasn't been in effect = frost.

 

I am continually baffled by all this. Zh

Hi @zoothorn This same thing confused me but people on Build hub pointed out what was being said.

 

From what I understand there are 2 possible items that could freeze:

 

1 The water in the the pipes that goes round the ASHP in the the building and back again, which can freeze just like a bucket of water in the garden.

2 When the temperature and humidity are "wrong" the cold air being produced by the ASHP can cause condensation on the grills which freezes because the outside temperature is so cold.

 

My question is, which one is the problem?

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok. These are different things and you cannot mix them up. The current hydrobox has a lot of moving parts and includes at least one pump plus other components that “make noise”. This is a water tank and a pump that circulates water - I’ve just tried to record the sound it makes but tbh is so quiet that I can’t…!! 
 

Software is irrelevant here - you need to let them replace the lot and then it will be easier to understand if there are other inherent issues with your property. 
 

Who is doing the install ..? Is it Vaillant ..?

This is encouraging Peter. But I still need proof, by Vaillant, that the same pump I have now in this box ( is it a hydraulic unit ? I think so ) is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT in this tank thing.

 

I am so adamant of the need to know this fact, due to the current one being SO DAMN problematically noise- intrusively loud.

 

IT all boils down to this pump. Same or even similar pump ( or rather the same system-principle pump to the other, possibly milo one mfr, a french Co the other but essentially the same part ).... & I cannot possibly accept this tank is placed in this  bedroom cupboard. Which means either they fit the system without the tank ( said so but major caveats- I don't think a sendible route )... or not at all.

 

This is the nub. What Ive been asking day after day  to Vaillant ( also, still, why on earth water is being moved at all/ anyway within the house if rooms do not drop below 7*C which means the rads are never, ever ever ever susceptible to frost.. in 2 years of asking, I still have no reply or answer to this infuriating riddle ).

[joe90]

Sorry @zoothorn but at the risk of being rude you are not listening.
1/ the noisy bit was inside its now going outside

2/ water tanks and pumps are very quiet

3/ antifreeze in the water stops freezing due to cold weather,

4/ anti frost mode is a pump (quiet) moving some warm water from your internal pipework and/or buffer tank back into the unit outside because running In cold air and high relative humidity causes the fins to develop ice so blocking the air moving.

5/ software makes NO noise at all.

 

please post up the Unit being installed and the collective (great) knowledge here will give it their approval or not. ?

[Pocster]

On 02/02/2022 at 21:05, vala said:

Could you not have a different heat source? Maybe gas or oil?

Fusion reactor perhaps ?

[Marvin]

Some phots would help....

[TonyT]

Thread lock would be better

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Thread lock would be better

Does Locktite reduce noise?

Suppose it can on a wheel nut.

[zoothorn]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Sorry @zoothorn but at the risk of being rude you are not listening.
1/ the noisy bit was inside its now going outside

2/ water tanks and pumps are very quiet

3/ antifreeze in the water stops freezing due to cold weather,

4/ anti frost mode is a pump (quiet) moving some warm water from your internal pipework and/or buffer tank back into the unit outside because running In cold air and high relative humidity causes the fins to develop ice so blocking the air moving.

5/ software makes NO noise at all.

 

please post up the Unit being installed and the collective (great) knowledge here will give it their approval or not. ?

J. Your info is of course read & some of it is reassuring in you're assesment that my tank pump will be quiet. But I can see as many similaraities with my current system, as you can see otherwise.

 

I am told by vaillant, the reason I have to have this tank. It is because the volume of  'warmish'' water within the rads, may not be sufficient to facilitate this frost mode. So it needs an extra reservoir. This implies the tank is solely to do with this frost mode. But you say otherwise ( im not discounting this). If it has a pump inside, & it is to do with frost mode, & the frost mode software is the same as my current one, then it is fair to assume the following will happen at this tank, within this tank:

 

1. It will go into frost mode overnight.

2. It will use a pump, within it, to facilitate this frost mode.

3. It will be, in the same location of my current 'overnight frost mode noise problem box'.

 

So I can see nothing but similarities, you see nothing but differences. I am hoping to goodness you are correct. But I cannot see how I can agree this is likely.

 

----

I am still perplexed by the very design/ nature of this frost mode. At the moment, water is ( seemingly ) being circulated around radiators which are in rooms even when off at 3 am, even during coldest day Ive recorded, above 7*C. The water circulsted, has no phydical way of exiting my house, via any pipe, in order to enter the only hsrdware susceptible to frost, that being anything whatsoever, outside.

 

No water pipes. Only high pressure pipes ( which introduce I think a gas into the house via a compressor ). So I know, with a degree of certainty, that none of this 'warmish' circulated water is in any other pisition.... than within the house.

 

Furthermore, Vaillant agree. They tell me that ' none of this water goes to (for eg) the outside fan unit'.

 

Therefore. Why if this frost mode water, is not in contact with frost- prone hardware, what is its purpose to just circulate around inside the house ?????

 

It is design absurdity.

 

IF the water exited, circulated around the frost prone outside hardware, then entered again....doing a circuit including the outside hardware....... then logic surfaces!! At last!! SOMETHING to do with this wretched frost mode, finally, would make sense.

 

BUT IT DOESN'T EXIT. It stays inside the house. IF the inside got to say 3*C then logic surfaces !!  At last!! But, again as Ive explained & found from thermometer evidence, this 3*Cfigure is nowhere near reached inside...... SO NO LOGIC EXISTS.

[ReedRichards]

My monobloc ASHP has an outside pump that sends the water to the buffer tank or the DHW cylinder.  And there is an inside pump that circulates the water around the central heating system.  The outside pump is responsible for any defrosting necessary and is completely silent inside the house.  The central heating pump is pretty quiet but does make some noise when the central heating is on.  But the pump is small and so might be positioned away from the buffer tank where the noise it makes is not intrusive.

 

If you must have a buffer tank, just insist that no pumps are co-located with it.        

[zoothorn]

Im in my car. I drive along & it starts raining. I turn on the wipers. The side windows, have wipers on, but the windscreen doesn't.

 

So I ask the car mfr I need window wipers because its raining. You have them is the answer. Yes but not on the windscreen so I can't see. I dont need them on the sides, because I don't look out the side windows to drive forwards. I add that I am not a chameleon lizard ( with the eyes). You have to have wipers they say.
 

I decide to get a new car, that one's shite. Has it got windscreen wipers? Its got wipers they say.

 

 

[Pocster]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Im in my car. I drive along & it starts raining. I turn on the wipers. The side windows, have wipers on, but the windscreen doesn't.

 

So I ask the car mfr I need window wipers because its raining. You have them is the answer. Yes but not on the windscreen so I can't see. I dont need them on the sides, because I don't look out the side windows to drive forwards. I add that I am not a chameleon lizard ( with the eyes). You have to have wipers they say.
 

I decide to get a new car, that one's shite. Has it got windscreen wipers? Its got wipers they say.

 

 

You are allowed to drive ?

[vala]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Fusion reactor perhaps ?

Does it have a frost mode setting?

[Pocster]

8 minutes ago, vala said:

Does it have a frost mode setting?

The one I have doesn’t suffer from frost affecting it’s ability . It’s really quiet to run also . I think valiant do one .

[SteamyTea]

36 minutes ago, pocster said:

You are allowed to drive

Did that quip a year or two back.

[Pocster]

10 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Did that quip a year or two back.

Yet here we are again 

[PeterW]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

 

IT all boils down to this pump. Same or even similar pump

nope it doesn’t. The issue you have is noise from the pump in the hydronic unit as it has other things in there as well. They are all off outside. 
 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

This implies the tank is solely to do with this frost mode.

Wrong again … so the reason they want the tank is to stop the internal pump having to circulate water around the house to gain heat so that the unit outside can be defrosted. With the buffer, the external unit can draw on this assuming the unit runs overnight and needs to use frost protection mode. 
 

Simple analogy for you. 
 

Car windscreen is frosted up. Do you wait for it to defrost naturally, which will take ages and mean you have to delay going to the shops and you can’t get what you want, or do you get a kettle full of hot water from inside the house that has been preheated and use that ..?? 
 

Same principle with frost protect - either wait ages and run the risk that something adverse happens and not have the buffer, or have the buffer that quickly sorts any frost issues. 

 

And you need to post the model number of what they are proposing - PM me the proposal if you want 
 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

54 minutes ago, pocster said:

Yet here we are again 

We can use something similar when this latest installation is fitted and rattling like @Onoff's Peugeot.

 

Shall I start the topic now, or wait till later.

Edited February 8, 2022 by SteamyTea