Gamble on Gas?

[Adsibob]

Just now, IanR said:

 

I'm not sure how you are obtaining the green hydrogen for the FC boiler, if you are comparing a gas boiler to a green hydrogen fed FC boiler. I personally do not believe green hydrogen (or any colour hydrogen) will ever be piped in to UK homes via a public network.

As i mentioned earlier, the Veissman converts the methane gas coming into the house into hydrogen and hot water. There is some C02 by-product which is emitted, but my understanding is that this is 40% less than that which would be emitted by a gas boiler to make the same amount of energy. The hot water is stored so that it can be used later, when needed. Just like you would with a system boiler.

[SteamyTea]

32 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

well the process is quite efficient because most of the energy lost in that reaction is captured as hot water

If if it was so, you would be overproducing hot water.

 

I am sure every real engineer involved in the hydrogen economy knows the truth, a resistance heater is easier and probably, including infrastructure costs, cheaper.

Not as if there is no infrastructure costs needed to produce hydrogen.

 

The fixation with hydrogen shows a lack of basic physics and chemistry.

 

If we take todays electrical infrastructure, it can reliably supply 60 GW.  We very really use that much.  The UK is currently using ~43 GW, so we could store that extra 17 GW in pumped storage, compressed air, thermal and chemical devices.

Come tonight, we will probably be using ~25 GW.

So plenty of spare.

[Tony K]

30 minutes ago, Triassic said:

You have to ask to fit an ASHP?   You learn something new everyday.

 

I have planning permission to fit 3.8kw of PV.   Next you'll be telling me it's not up to the LA planner to approve this!

 

My own experience has been thus:

 

1. Check in advance that the electric network is within reasonable distance of your SB.

2. Tell UK Power Networks that you want to build a new house and heat it using a 12kw ASHP. 

3. Get a quote from UK Power Networks for an electric connection for your SB. They will come out and take photos and do you a little drawing and everything. In my case the cables are about seven metres away from the new SB, under an unmade track. Connection fee quoted at circa £3k.

4. Spend a life-altering sum on the SB, up to and including the roof.

5. Tell UKPN you want to proceed with connection.

6. UKPN tell you that the network isn't up to the job, and that it'll cost you £60k instead as they need to do so many local upgrades to facilitate your ASHP. 

7. Install a gas or oil boiler. Probably. 

 

It's terribly clever stuff.

 

On your second point, be aware that whilst the planners can approve the presence of the PVs, that's just to do with the visual implications. They have nothing whatsoever to do with you being allowed to connect to the grid or not. Not that I am aware of any reason why the DO should object to PVs. Mind you, you can see from the above that I am on a steep learning curve here so don't take my word for it!

[IanR]

36 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

As i mentioned earlier, the Veissman converts the methane gas coming into the house into hydrogen and hot water. There is some C02 by-product which is emitted, but my understanding is that this is 40% less than that which would be emitted by a gas boiler to make the same amount of energy. The hot water is stored so that it can be used later, when needed. Just like you would with a system boiler.

 

I hadn't followed the link, so this is the one with the mini steam methane reforming unit in front of the fuel cell that's about £20K. The efficiency figures are opaque,.

The SMR process releases the same CO2 from Methane that burning natural gas does (as long all the carbon monoxide produced gets converted back to CO2). It must be giving itself some efficiency credits back for the electricity it produces, the production of which may or may not be at a time when you use it.

Edited January 31, 2022 by IanR

[Iceverge]

I'm convinced that hydrogen is just greenwashing by fossil fuel companies. 

 

@Tony K12kW is a pretty large ASHP. What is your max heating load?

[Adsibob]

38 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

It must be giving itself some efficiency credits back for the electricity it produces, the production of which may or may not be at a time when you use it.

Except that you can hook it up to one of these https://www.viessmann.de/de/wohngebaeude/photovoltaik/stromspeicher-systeme/vitocharge.html and store the electricity.

[ProDave]

49 minutes ago, Tony K said:

1. Check in advance that the electric network is within reasonable distance of your SB.

2. Tell UK Power Networks that you want to build a new house and heat it using a 12kw ASHP. 

3. Get a quote from UK Power Networks for an electric connection for your SB. They will come out and take photos and do you a little drawing and everything. In my case the cables are about seven metres away from the new SB, under an unmade track. Connection fee quoted at circa £3k.

4. Spend a life-altering sum on the SB, up to and including the roof.

5. Tell UKPN you want to proceed with connection.

6. UKPN tell you that the network isn't up to the job, and that it'll cost you £60k instead as they need to do so many local upgrades to facilitate your ASHP. 

7. Install a gas or oil boiler. Probably. 

Lesson for other self builders, at step 3, immediately accept the quote, pay the £3K and order the supply so it is the first thing on site even before you start building.

[TonyT]

40 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Lesson for other self builders, at step 3, immediately accept the quote, pay the £3K and order the supply so it is the first thing on site even before you start building.

And when you finish the build they may be ready to energise for you?

[ProDave]

5 minutes ago, TonyT said:

And when you finish the build they may be ready to energise for you?

I am missing something here.  Our electricity and water was on site when the only thing there was the static caravan.  All fully energised and functional.

[epsilonGreedy]

21 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am missing something here.  Our electricity and water was on site when the only thing there was the static caravan.  All fully energised and functional.

 

Same here and telephone.

[JohnMo]

18 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Same here and telephone.

And me, even got a refund from SSE because they charge me for to much cable.

[epsilonGreedy]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

And me, even got a refund from SSE because they charge me for to much cable.

 

I got a refund from BT when they enabled the wrong line and left my new connection dead..

[SimonD]

7 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

Hydrogen is not that far away. There are issues, many issues, but it's certainly not sci-fi.

 

At a local scale, yet this is very different from what would be required when scaled-up to replace natural gas where, if it is to be environmentally friendly as well as economic and sustainable, much of the required technology is still at the sci-fi stage. Hence why the latest government heat in buildings strategy kicked many of the cans re alternative energy generation down the road. Blue hydrogen in particular seems like an insane idea.

 

But of course the sci-fi notion doesn't just apply to technology, but also how we live. The fundamental issue here is that we don't have an infinite amount of energy available to us so it seems that the focus on a technological solution for energy generation misses the mark. The real question should be how we reduce our energy consumption - and that would have to lead to a fundamental reassessment of how our world works. Right now it is based on both fossil fuel energy and the continuous growth of consumption.

[SimonD]

8 hours ago, Tony K said:

 

This is the concern of course.

 

Perhaps another way to look at the gamble is:

 

If I get a gas boiler now, will it be easier for me to connect to the electric grid with an ASHP in 12 years time than it is today? I presume most electricity DO's will have had to improve network capacity in anticipation of mass-ASHP use?

 

I don't think anybody knows, least of all the policy makers...my perspective is aligned with @ProDave's in that the only way to future proof yourself is to focus on reducing your energy demand mainly through a good, well insulated and airtight building fabric. Depending on where you are in the country, you might also want to look at designing the fabric of your house to keep you cool too. You could also hedge your bets by using a low temperature heating system that runs off the energy you have easy access to.

[Carrerahill]

13 hours ago, SimonD said:

 

At a local scale, yet this is very different from what would be required when scaled-up to replace natural gas where, if it is to be environmentally friendly as well as economic and sustainable, much of the required technology is still at the sci-fi stage. Hence why the latest government heat in buildings strategy kicked many of the cans re alternative energy generation down the road. Blue hydrogen in particular seems like an insane idea.

 

But of course the sci-fi notion doesn't just apply to technology, but also how we live. The fundamental issue here is that we don't have an infinite amount of energy available to us so it seems that the focus on a technological solution for energy generation misses the mark. The real question should be how we reduce our energy consumption - and that would have to lead to a fundamental reassessment of how our world works. Right now it is based on both fossil fuel energy and the continuous growth of consumption.

You're telling me. Our firm are working on the strategy paper with SGN to come up with a solution! 

[SimonD]

49 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

You're telling me. Our firm are working on the strategy paper with SGN to come up with a solution! 

Good stuff ?

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

You're telling me. Our firm are working on the strategy paper with SGN to come up with a solution! 

Who is doing the technical side?

[Tony K]

On 31/01/2022 at 15:14, ProDave said:

Do what you can at the build stage to reduce heating need, so lots of insulation, good air tightness, good windows, low temperature under floor heating, Unvented hot water tank (not thermal store)

 

Then the heat source is less important, a small system boiler will do it for now, as will an ASHP.  You could also swap for an ASHP later, I am not awre of a need to seek DNO approval for a retro fit. 

 

But if you have a low energy house design that only needs a small inverter driven ASHP then I really cannot see why the DNO would say no.

 

If you want a boiler for short term I would probably go oil with a small tank, and avoid the cost of a gas connection.  Choose an outdoor oil boiler and it's a relatively easy swap to an ASHP.

 

Cheers @ProDave, I have made the house as efficient as I can. It's not passive of course, but does have good insulation, has UFH, has enough glazing to allow the slab to soak up heat etc.

 

As per your advice I may well go for an external oil boiler ahead of an eventual switch to ASHP, but does this not have implications for the type of UFH I use?

Edited February 1, 2022 by Tony K

[LnP]

On 31/01/2022 at 18:23, IanR said:

You have to question why the 20% hydrogen blend is even being tested as a stepping stone. It only delivers a 6% CO2 saving, and that's if Green hydrogen is used, which doesn't yet exist in the UK at volume, so currently Hydrogen is made from Natural gas, releasing more CO2 in the process than the saving it provides by displacing 6% of the Natural gas that would otherwise have been burnt in the home.

I don't think this quite tells the whole story. The two projects selected by the government as track 1 industry clusters for decarbonisation, H2Teesside and Hynet in the  North West (Stanlow), will indeed produce hydrogen by reforming natural gas, which will produce CO2, but the CO2 will be captured and stored by injecting it into existing depleted oil wells - so called blue hydrogen. The BP project at Teesside also includes a project for green hydrogen by electrolysing water using renewable electricity. They both anticipate blending hydrogen into the existing natural gas network, amongst other uses. ERM's Dolphyn project is an example of using off-shore wind to produce green hydrogen by electrolysis.

 

The feasibility of blending 20% hydrogen into an existing natural gas network has already been demonstrated, e.g. at the Hydeploy project at Keele University.

 

Hydrogen will play an important role in decarbonisation, especially since as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are doubts about the capacity of the existing electrical infrastructure. 

 

https://hynet.co.uk

https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/what-we-do/gas-and-low-carbon-energy/h2teesside.html

https://ermdolphyn.erm.com/p/1

https://www.keele.ac.uk/about/news/2021/september/hydeploy-trial/hydrogen-gas-blending.php

[IanR]

8 hours ago, LnP said:

I don't think this quite tells the whole story.

 

Green Hydrogen, certainly has a place in the future net zero world, my comments relate only to heating homes. There are 70 millions tons of annual, legacy, hydrogen production that need to be replaced, eventually, by green hydrogen. However, due to the costs of green hydrogen and the unwillingness of the hydrogen production industry to start the transition without government incentives, almost no progress has been made on that transition.

 

While some of the legacy hydrogen uses should slowly reduce, if we ever reduce the amount of oil we refine, there are plenty of additional, hard to electrify, industrial and heavy transport sectors whose only option will be to move to green hydrogen and will further increase the the need for green hydrogen.

 

There is no getting away from the fact that as it takes 1.5kWh of renewable energy to produce 1kW of green hydrogen (before any compression, transport or Electrolyser, costs are considered) it can never be more "efficient" or lower cost to use green hydrogen than it is to use the renewable electricity directly.

 

There's little agreement currently about the costs of getting green hydrogen in to the home, but the range is somewhere between 3kWh and 6kWh of energy for every 1kWh of hydrogen. That is a really inefficient use of renewable energy. If the hydrogen that has got to the home is then burnt, that 3kWh - 6kWh of original renewable energy will generate 0.9kWh of heat, with roughly the same NOx emissions as burning natural gas. The alternative is to transmit the renewable energy directly to the house, as electricity and use a direct electric heater with a total loss of 5%, or feed it in to a heat pump and achieve an ultimate gain of 300%.

 

With the heating of buildings having a clear alternative to green hydrogen, that is cheaper and cleaner (no NOx emissions), I see the current trials of up to 20% hydrogen blended into the natural gas supply as a pointless exercise that releases more CO2 than just burning 100% gas would have. My understanding is that at the point of the trial there is no blue hydrogen being used, with first availability being 2025, and the trial happening now. The "low carbon" branding of CCUS Gas, used for blue hydrogen production is currently under dispute. The Gas industry have not enjoyed having their homework checked, and have reacted very badly to reports suggesting their theoretical analysis of the CO2 reduction CCUS can achieve seriously under estimates the fugitive methane released in reality. Methane having 9 times the climate change effect of CO2.

 

8 hours ago, LnP said:

Hydrogen will play an important role in decarbonisation, especially since as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are doubts about the capacity of the existing electrical infrastructure.

 

Absolutely agree that hydrogen use will substantially increase as we move towards net zero, but not for heating homes. Yes the electricity grid needs continual updating as we move to more electrification. To use 100% hydrogen in the home would require an even bigger upgrade of the Natural Gas network. Due to much higher pressures required and the hydrogen embrittlement of steel,  the entire replacement of all pumping assets, joints and valves is needed as well as putting in to question the current steel pipeline network that supports the domestic supply. The gas industry like to point to the fact that the plastic pipes entering home are already capable of carrying hydrogen, but this is a very small part of the story.

 

The domestic gas supply industry is facing an existential crisis, and is trying its hardest to stay in the game. They don't really care if hydrogen is the expensive option for heating homes, they need to protect the asset they have in the form of the gas grid network. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by IanR

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, IanR said:

don't really care if hydrogen is the expensive option for heating homes, they need to protect the asset they have in the form of the gas grid network. 

They can pull electrical cables through some of the existing pipework. May be more cost effective. 

[Iceverge]

Hydrogen is the "filter tips" for the oil industry. 

[Tony K]

On 31/01/2022 at 19:12, Tony K said:

 

My own experience has been thus:

 

1. Check in advance that the electric network is within reasonable distance of your SB.

2. Tell UK Power Networks that you want to build a new house and heat it using a 12kw ASHP. 

3. Get a quote from UK Power Networks for an electric connection for your SB. They will come out and take photos and do you a little drawing and everything. In my case the cables are about seven metres away from the new SB, under an unmade track. Connection fee quoted at circa £3k.

4. Spend a life-altering sum on the SB, up to and including the roof.

5. Tell UKPN you want to proceed with connection.

6. UKPN tell you that the network isn't up to the job, and that it'll cost you £60k instead as they need to do so many local upgrades to facilitate your ASHP. 

7. Install a gas or oil boiler. Probably. 

 

It's terribly clever stuff.

 

 

Those with passing interest in my tale of woe may be heartened to learn that I seem to have convinced UKPN of the error of their ways. When I first registered for a connection I used a web-form, which in turn generated a PDF of all the information I had supplied. This was emailed to me automatically, along with some standard gumpf. This PDF proved that I had informed UKPN from the outset of my desire to have a 12kw ASHP, and that their subsequent quotes of circa £3k had been on that basis therefore. 

 

UKPN had variously stated that...

 

• I hadn't originally told them about the ASHP (incorrect, see above).
• They couldn't honour the original quote as it was over a year old (true, but they provided me with a refreshed and almost identical one in October 21).
• My offer to drop from three phase to single didn't help to 'balance the network' (they have now agreed to the connection on the strict proviso that I only have single phase - the triple phase was not my idea anyway, it was suggested to me as a future-proofing measure by... you've guessed it, the UKPN surveyor).

All I have to do now is wait until next week when the UKPN surveyor comes out to have a look at the site. For the third time. 

 

If you are having trouble with your DO, I hope this helps.