Gamble on Gas?

[Tony K]

Afternoon. 

I am in 'discussions' with my DO about being allowed to connect an ASHP to the network. If they refuse then I will need to look at alternatives.

 

I have discounted biomass due to the size required for the boiler and storage (it is a small SB with a very tiny utility room), so the obvious alternative to an ASHP is gas. 

 

Plainly gas is yesterdays product and it feels wrong to instal it in my SB. However, I am mindful of the talk that the gas network will be replaced by hydrogen at some point in the future.

 

Have I correctly understood the nature of my gamble to be as follows:

 

Will a new gas combi boiler last long enough to see us through until hydrogen becomes available?

 

 

 

 

[SimonD]

Gas boilers typically have a life design of about 12 years. Gas is going to be around for this long. The reality of hydrogen is still in the realms of sci-fi as are most of the large scale alternatives, even heat pumps as a direct replacement. 

[Temp]

Nearly all gas boilers can run on a mix of hydrogen and gas as well. My guess is that _if_ hydrogen is used at all it will be just a few percent perhaps increasing over many decades like we have done with E10 biofuel.

[Tony K]

7 minutes ago, SimonD said:

Gas boilers typically have a life design of about 12 years. Gas is going to be around for this long. The reality of hydrogen is still in the realms of sci-fi as are most of the large scale alternatives, even heat pumps as a direct replacement. 

 

This is the concern of course.

 

Perhaps another way to look at the gamble is:

 

If I get a gas boiler now, will it be easier for me to connect to the electric grid with an ASHP in 12 years time than it is today? I presume most electricity DO's will have had to improve network capacity in anticipation of mass-ASHP use?

[Carrerahill]

15 minutes ago, SimonD said:

Gas boilers typically have a life design of about 12 years. Gas is going to be around for this long. The reality of hydrogen is still in the realms of sci-fi as are most of the large scale alternatives, even heat pumps as a direct replacement. 

Hydrogen is not that far away. There are issues, many issues, but it's certainly not sci-fi.

 

One of my colleagues was at a high-level SGN meeting late last year where 20% hydrogen trials are going to begin in Scotland this year, the trials are not big, they will be limited to small towns, but it is happening now. I am currently shopping about for a new gas boiler and all the ones I am looking at are claiming 20% hydrogen compatible, which is actually an attempt as a selling point rather than anything new as most gas appliances will cope happily with 20% and higher mix of hydrogen.

 

The biggest issue is generating the hydrogen. However, because the gas network exists and burning gas to heat and cook is quite convenient, there will be a big push to use the existing network and reduce the demand on the already struggling electric network. So the next stage will be large scale hydrogen generation stations, centralised they could find a means of using renewables to do this, then it will likely be that gas will stay in our homes for many many many decades to come. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Carrerahill

[Carrerahill]

7 minutes ago, Tony K said:

If I get a gas boiler now, will it be easier for me to connect to the electric grid with an ASHP in 12 years time than it is today? I presume most electricity DO's will have had to improve network capacity in anticipation of mass-ASHP use?

They will and they are sort of thinking about it, but not at a great rate. 

 

The race is on to solve this issue and I am not convinced in the short term, 15-25 years, that electric is the answer. I am dealing, daily, with electric network constraint issues. We are struggling with a big development in London just now, we may need 4 separate supplies from 4 local substations to get this building hooked up, what a mess. 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Carrerahill

[Temp]

I don't think it makes sense to put hydrogen into gas until the electricity grid is using as much renewable energy as possible. 

 

 

[Carrerahill]

1 minute ago, Temp said:

I don't think it makes sense to put hydrogen into gas until the electricity grid is using as much renewable energy as possible. 

 

 

The issue is more than that though. The local HV and LV networks are struggling now, they reckon that for every existing primary sub-station and secondary they will need the equivalent of another 1. So that 1:1 ratio, in other words they will need to double the capacity of the grid. 

 

They need to do everything simultaneously to ease the burden. 

 

A good business to get into just now would be package sub-stations! 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Carrerahill

[ProDave]

Do what you can at the build stage to reduce heating need, so lots of insulation, good air tightness, good windows, low temperature under floor heating, Unvented hot water tank (not thermal store)

 

Then the heat source is less important, a small system boiler will do it for now, as will an ASHP.  You could also swap for an ASHP later, I am not awre of a need to seek DNO approval for a retro fit. 

 

But if you have a low energy house design that only needs a small inverter driven ASHP then I really cannot see why the DNO would say no.

 

If you want a boiler for short term I would probably go oil with a small tank, and avoid the cost of a gas connection.  Choose an outdoor oil boiler and it's a relatively easy swap to an ASHP.

[Temp]

1 minute ago, Carrerahill said:

The issue is more than that though. The local HV and LV networks are struggling now, they reckon that for every existing primary sub-station and secondary they will need the equivalent of another 1. So that 1:1 ratio, in other words they will need to double the capacity of the grid. 

 

A good business to get into just now would be package sub-stations! 

 

+1  I was really replying to the original question about choosing a gas boiler. 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

10 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am not awre of a need to seek DNO approval for a retro fit. 

So, just fit a £40 Willis heater to get signed off as a “3kW electric boiler”, and pipe / duct services in, in anticipation of the retro fit ASHP? 
TBH you’d put more load on fitting a big electric shower !!!!  DNO’s need a reality check. 
The ASHP I fitted before Xmas starts at less current than a toaster. 

[Tony K]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

So, just fit a £40 Willis heater to get signed off as a “3kW electric boiler”, and pipe / duct services in, in anticipation of the retro fit ASHP? 
TBH you’d put more load on fitting a big electric shower !!!!  DNO’s need a reality check. 
The ASHP I fitted before Xmas starts at less current than a toaster. 

 

I have looked at the idea of adding an ASHP later on without telling the DO, but I believe they must be notified. 

I am in the middle of trying to engage the DO regarding possible spec amendments for the ASHP to alleviate their concerns, but they aren't showing any obvious inclination to have that conversation, hence me trying to explore the fall back options.

 

Thing is, the more I find out about it the less it seems that there is a reasonably future-proofed alternative to the ASHP. 

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, Tony K said:

Afternoon. 

I am in 'discussions' with my DO about being allowed to connect an ASHP to the network. If they refuse then I will need to look at alternatives.

 

I have discounted biomass due to the size required for the boiler and storage (it is a small SB with a very tiny utility room), so the obvious alternative to an ASHP is gas. 

 

Plainly gas is yesterdays product and it feels wrong to instal it in my SB. However, I am mindful of the talk that the gas network will be replaced by hydrogen at some point in the future.

 

Have I correctly understood the nature of my gamble to be as follows:

 

Will a new gas combi boiler last long enough to see us through until hydrogen becomes available?

 

 

 

 

 

There is also an issue that much of the gas network is permeable to too great a degree as the amount of hydrogen in the gas increases - smaller molecules etc. Also pipe brittleness.

 

I can see it being limited to a fraction for a long time.

 

Given current political manoeuvres, I can even see our gas resources being stretched out for resilience, or even a new field being opened up. Arguably we are well enough ahead on decarbonising our power supplies that we can allow for it.

[Nickfromwales]

25 minutes ago, Tony K said:

I believe they must be notified

There are ASHP’s which are on a specific list and those “that are not” 

No electrician ever stops to ask to fit a new huge induction hob or a replacement upgrade to a 10kw electric shower  

[Bitpipe]

44 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If you want a boiler for short term I would probably go oil with a small tank, and avoid the cost of a gas connection.  Choose an outdoor oil boiler and it's a relatively easy swap to an ASHP.

 

The gas connection is heavily subsidised - only cost me a few hundred pounds.

 

Disconnecting the previous gas supply before demolition cost £1500 and was a 20 min job for the contractors!

 

 

[nod]

Locally to us there is miles and miles of new gas mains being installed 

Gas will clearly be around long after all of us have gone 

 

Hydrogen seems to be a bit of a myth 

With Hydrogen boilers running off a mix of 

20% Hydrogen and 80% gas 

[Adsibob]

2 hours ago, Tony K said:

Afternoon. 

I am in 'discussions' with my DO about being allowed to connect an ASHP to the network. If they refuse then I will need to look at alternatives.

 

I have discounted biomass due to the size required for the boiler and storage (it is a small SB with a very tiny utility room), so the obvious alternative to an ASHP is gas. 

 

Plainly gas is yesterdays product and it feels wrong to instal it in my SB. However, I am mindful of the talk that the gas network will be replaced by hydrogen at some point in the future.

 

Have I correctly understood the nature of my gamble to be as follows:

 

Will a new gas combi boiler last long enough to see us through until hydrogen becomes available?

 

 

 

 

You can already get a hydrogen boiler. Veissman make one in conjunction witha Japanese company, Panasonic I think. It makes the hydrogen from the existing methane gas supply. A useful byproduct of this reaction is hot water. It is really bloody clever. I was going to get one, but it took up slightly more room than I had. They are about the size of a full size fridge. 

[joe90]

2 hours ago, Tony K said:

but I believe they must be notified. 

I didn’t, nobody asked me to tell them ?‍♂️ as said above the DNO,s don’t know their ass from their elbow regarding ASHP,s, electric showers etc can put more load but not notifiable. I also agree that fabric first (loads of insulation) will almost negate a boiler of any real size, my build is not Passive (quite) but I only have a 5kW ASHP and that works just fine.

[Adsibob]

This was the thing I was talking about. It's actually bigger than I had remembered: https://www.viessmann.co.uk/products/combined-heat-and-power/fuel-cell/vitovalor

[IanR]

3 hours ago, Tony K said:

I am in 'discussions' with my DO about being allowed to connect an ASHP to the network. If they refuse then I will need to look at alternatives.

 

I wasn't aware they required notifying, but they insisted I upgrade the local transformer for any new connection anyway.

 

If that really could stop you going ASHP, then how about a Gas system boiler with UVC and emitters designed for low flow temp, so it's an easy swap to ASHP later, if when it does break down Gas replacement boilers are banned.

 

Hydrogen for heating houses may possibly be used for properties that don't have the space for heat pumps and it's not feasible to join them to a district heating solution, but as direct electric heaters will be cheaper to run, I can't really see much use of hydrogen in homes. You have to question why the 20% hydrogen blend is even being tested as a stepping stone. It only delivers a 6% CO2 saving, and that's if Green hydrogen is used, which doesn't yet exist in the UK at volume, so currently Hydrogen is made from Natural gas, releasing more CO2 in the process than the saving it provides by displacing 6% of the Natural gas that would otherwise have been burnt in the home.

 

It takes significantly more renewable energy to produce hydrogen, pressurise it (at far higher pressure than natural gas) and pump it to a home than the net kWh of hydrogen you get to burn in the home, it is far more efficient to only loose about 5% of the renewable energy transmitting it to the home across the grid and using an ASHP to at least triple it's energy value to heat a house. 

 

1 minute ago, Adsibob said:

This was the thing I was talking about. It's actually bigger than I had remembered: https://www.viessmann.co.uk/products/combined-heat-and-power/fuel-cell/vitovalor

 

Not sure of the logic in a fuel cell boiler... Once you get the inefficient hydrogen into the house you then convert it back to electricity in a far less efficient process than just burning it directly.

[Adsibob]

1 minute ago, IanR said:

Not sure of the logic in a fuel cell boiler... Once you get the inefficient hydrogen into the house you then convert it back to electricity in a far less efficient process than just burning it directly.

well the process is quite efficient because most of the energy lost in that reaction is captured as hot water. It is not a silver bullet to all of our problems, but it's significantly cleaner than burning gas, and doesn't need to wait for the network to be converted to hydrogen, which will take years! 

[IanR]

Just now, Adsibob said:

well the process is quite efficient because most of the energy lost in that reaction is captured as hot water. 

 

End-to-End it's really not. And what if your hot water requirement and electricity need are not in the balance that the FC boiler delivers them.

Using hydrogen today releases more CO2 than natural gas as we do not yet have Green Hydrogen facilities for the volume production of green hydrogen, for the simple reason it is not economic to produce.

[Triassic]

30 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I didn’t, nobody asked me to tell them ?‍♂️ as said above the DNO,s don’t know their ass from their elbow regarding ASHP,s, electric showers etc can put more load but not notifiable. I also agree that fabric first (loads of insulation) will almost negate a boiler of any real size, my build is not Passive (quite) but I only have a 5kW ASHP and that works just fine.

You have to ask to fit an ASHP?   You learn something new everyday.

 

I have planning permission to fit 3.8kw of PV.   Next you'll be telling me it's not up to the LA planner to approve this!

[Adsibob]

7 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

Using hydrogen today releases more CO2 than natural gas as we do not yet have Green Hydrogen facilities for the volume production of green hydrogen, for the simple reason it is not economic to produce.

But that is not a fair comparison because green hydrogen is not available now, as you point out. The comparison I was making was against a regular gas boiler. The fuel cell is greener as less carbon emissions overall. 

[IanR]

1 minute ago, Adsibob said:

But that is not a fair comparison because green hydrogen is not available now, as you point out. The comparison I was making was against a regular gas boiler. The fuel cell is greener as less carbon emissions overall. 

 

I'm not sure how you are obtaining the green hydrogen for the FC boiler, if you are comparing a gas boiler to a green hydrogen fed FC boiler. I personally do not believe green hydrogen (or any colour hydrogen) will ever be piped in to UK homes via a public network.