Worktop nightmare

[Adsibob]

I wasn’t able to be on site this week when the kitchen was installed. My architect was there and updating me with various calls and messages consulting me on various things. He stayed on site for a full 3 days to supervise as well as other things going on.

He didn’t however consult me on the height of the worktop. I always thought these were standard at 900 or 925 from the floor. We’ve ended up with 887, which is the height he told the fitters to fit. It’s only 13mm less than what I thought was standard, but where we live at the moment is 915 so this is going to be almost 3cm lower. It feels a bit low. Should I insist on redoing everything, or will I get used to it. Upstands haven’t gone in yet so amount of destruction might not be that bad, but I expect it’s at least a couple of days Labour.

[Bonner]

AFAIK the standard is 920/940 - 150 plinth, 750 cupboards and 20-40mm worktop. This is what we have now and the kitchen we have ordered. Unless you are vertically challenged, any less will feel wrong so get it changed. It should not take more than a day to put right, maybe new plinths needed.

[ProDave]

More of an issue is it might be too low for a washing machine or dishwasher to fit under?

[markc]

The kitchen fitters should be used to fitting at “standard” height so my question would be why they fitted it so low?

did they take a problem to the architect? 
just seems odd that they would just fit the cabinets at that height without a very good reason,  - note on drawing etc.

Edited January 28, 2022 by markc

[epsilonGreedy]

How tall are the principal users of the kitchen?

 

Do you plan to fit some fancy thick flooring?

[epsilonGreedy]

2 minutes ago, markc said:

The kitchen fitters should be used to fitting at “standard” height so my question would be why they fitted it so low?

did they take a problem to the architect? 
just seems odd that they would just fit the cabinets at that height without a very good reason on note on drawing etc.

 

As explained in the first post the on-site architect instructed the fitters.

 

The architect should know the standard height so instead I would look more broadly at the kitchen design to identify what other error prompted the low height such as a difficult door swing and handle collision or wiring height error.

[dpmiller]

@Adsibob you referenced upstands and window cills in another thread, could this be the issue?

[markc]

28 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

As explained in the first post the on-site architect instructed the fitters.

 

The architect should know the standard height so instead I would look more broadly at the kitchen design to identify what other error prompted the low height such as a difficult door swing and handle collision or wiring height error.

Ahh yes, I missed the “he told them” … must not speed read 

[TonyT]

Any integrated dishwashers?

as you will need a large chunk of kick plate removed if it’s lower. 

inactually like to keep it 10-15mm higher than normal and it means no checking of kickplate.  No issues from 5ft 3 “ wife either 

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

More of an issue is it might be too low for a washing machine or dishwasher to fit under?

The appliances are already in, and all fit (our laundry appliances are going in the utility).

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

How tall are the principal users of the kitchen?

 

Do you plan to fit some fancy thick flooring?

I’m 186cm and my wife is about 174cm. Weirdly she spotted the height issue not me. 
 

just had a meeting on site. The issue preventing a simple fix is the 30mm Caesarstone worktop is already partly installed. Almost fully installed; all the stone fitter has left to do is seal the edges to the walls and then install some upstand on part of it.

 

 The stone fitter would charge me to come back and uninstall and then reinstall, but it’s not expensive relative to the overall cost, and architect has offered to pay for it, even though he insists he’s done nothing wrong and that I was aware of the height of the  worktop. The issue is the stone guy can’t guarantee the stone won’t get damaged andi don’t think the architect is offering to pay for new stone if it does. The stone fitter has done the seams between joins really nicely and he said that given everything fits nice and tight, there is a risk of damage if he has to lift it out. He suggested lifting everything (ie including the units) from underneath, but the lads on site (who fitted the kitchen to my architect’s instructions) say this is not possible because the units are attached to the wall and the only way to detach some of them is to lift the stone first.

 

The island is easier to solve as it’s not attached to any wall and doesn’t have any seams in it. Architect is saying the overall height is fine and I’m quibbling about a non issue. He says he has designed kitchen restaurants where the worktops are even lower at 860, and that standard height is 850 to 900.He also says one solution would be to leave our L shape as is and just raise the island, but I wonder whether that would look odd. He says it would look fine because the island is completely separate. Maybe he is right, maybe he is just pushing me towards the path of least resistance.

[ProDave]

I have just measured ours, and it is 900mm to the underside of the worktop so more like 940 to the surface.  Even at that height the kickboard under the dishwasher needed a notch cut out of it.  I chose that height so the kickboard would go under without cutting it.  any lower and the kickboard would have to be trimmed which must have been the case here.

 

You don't want main units and island at different heights, That will just look silly.

 

So the issue was you did not explicitly say to the architect what height to set the units, the architect made a decision to what he decided was "normal" and the fitters followed his instructions.  You will say it was the architects fault, the architect will say it was your fault for not instructing him.

 

Go and search all your drawings and documentation, if you can find anywhere that states the worktop height you might have a case.

[TonyT]

The architect has offered to pay for it- clearly he/she  knows they are in the wrong.

 

let them crack on and carry out the remedial works

[Adsibob]

15 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I have just measured ours, and it is 900mm to the underside of the worktop so more like 940 to the surface.  Even at that height the kickboard under the dishwasher needed a notch cut out of it.  I chose that height so the kickboard would go under without cutting it.  any lower and the kickboard would have to be trimmed which must have been the case here.

 

You don't want main units and island at different heights, That will just look silly.

 

So the issue was you did not explicitly say to the architect what height to set the units, the architect made a decision to what he decided was "normal" and the fitters followed his instructions.  You will say it was the architects fault, the architect will say it was your fault for not instructing him.

 

Go and search all your drawings and documentation, if you can find anywhere that states the worktop height you might have a case.

I’m not really sure what to do. If it had been installed at 900 I wouldn’t be able to quibble it because although that is still a bit low, it’s a “standard” height. I’m just annoyed, because looking back at my text exchanges I did actually query (before the work top was installed) whether there was enough space at the island for my knees to get under when sitting on a stool, and the architect did tell me that it would come out where it has, but assured me standard was anything between “about 850 to 900”. So I accepted that assurance. If he had said Standard is 900 to 940 but we are doing 887, I just wouldn’t have accepted it.

[joe90]

I used to fit many kitchens and within reason made the height what the customer wanted depending on their height. The only constraint was washing machines etc. That fir under the surface and even some of these had some adjustment. What was popular in a galley kitchen was one side without machines much lower to aid working for short people. I remember my grans scullery had a lower section fir rolling pastry. In this case can you live with it? Will it always piss you off?.

[bassanclan]

I would confirm in writing to the architect that he has agreed to cover the cost of raising the height and then worry about the worktop potential damage later.

He has basically admitted his mistake and if push came to shove he will have to cover the repair to the worktop too.

[Dave Jones]

890 is fine, i wouldnt worry about it.

[MJNewton]

Ours is 900mm from finished floor level to top of worktop. We spent a *long* time deciding what height to have and soon discovered we were really were overthinking it having gone round measuring the height of any kitchen we stepped foot in and discovered if there is a ‘standard’ then it’s got quite a tolerance to it in practice. Indeed, we discovered a difference of 20mm between the heights of our own (non-connected) worktops in the existing kitchen and had never previously noticed this in the 10 years we’ve been here! 
 

I think this is one of those cases where it’s only an issue if you make it one. And believe me, I’m something of an expert in creating such scenarios. Don’t let it haunt you.

[Andehh]

Never even considered this! Ours is bang on 900mm, I almost think it's slightly too tall now that I think about it. 

 

I'm sure our previous wasn't slightly lower, we had to cut 20mm out of the kickboard for the dishwasher at our last place. 

[Adsibob]

The architect actually wrote me a message saying he would pay for it. But he also made it clear that this would spoil our relationship and he wouldn’t be going the extra miles to finish the other project management tasks that he had taken on for me. And he is generally a really nice guy, who on the whole has been very good. So, together with all the comments here, I realised I was in OCD madness. I hadn’t even noticed the first time I saw the worktop. It was only my wife that noticed and even she said it wouldn’t bother her (because she is shorter than me but at least 10cm) but she just wondered whether it would bother me.

The reality is that

1) my builder has reassured me that he has enough men on site at the moment that they can easily raise the island to whatever height I want and that he’s not going to charge anything extra for it because “it’s such an easy job”;

2) for the L shape, it really just isn’t worth the risk of cracking it and spending a couple of hundred £ in refitting costs just so that I can chop veg with our existing flimsy chopping boards when I can just get one of those fat wooden ones I’ve always wanted.

3) as for the potential mismatch between the island and the L, we are lucky to have quite big gaps between the two, so I think a 25mm discrepancy  really won’t be noticeable. And when I do notice it, I will remind myself to stop being such an OCD perfectionist and enjoy my life instead.

[TonyT]

I’m sorry but this one sent OCD, this is expecting a finish to be standard across  a build.

 

to have a difference between the 2 is madness, just to keep an architect happy, you will probably have no relationship with the architect once the build is complete so tell him to pay up and get on with it.

 

[Adsibob]

15 minutes ago, TonyT said:

I’m sorry but this one sent OCD, this is expecting a finish to be standard across  a build.

 

to have a difference between the 2 is madness, just to keep an architect happy, you will probably have no relationship with the architect once the build is complete so tell him to pay up and get on with it.

 

if it cracks, the lead time for replacement slab is 5 - 8 weeks. Just not worth the hassle or the delay. He is basically on site 3-4 hours a day, 3 days a week, coordinating the interior fit out. We still have at least 4-6 weeks to go. I need him onside more than I need that additional 14mm. I will get him to buy me some fancy chopping boards.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Adsibob

[TonyT]

If it cracks it cracks and it will be replaced in 2 months, doesn’t stop you moving in.

 

living with a poor installation forever isn’t worth it.

 

if the architect is on site 3 days a week at the end of the job and making these poor decisions time for the relationship to end

 

 

[MJNewton]

54 minutes ago, TonyT said:

If it cracks it cracks and it will be replaced in 2 months, doesn’t stop you moving in.

 

It's a massive waste of money and materials though, regardless who ends up paying for it.

 

Quote

living with a poor installation forever isn’t worth it.

 

I don't see how it could be considered a poor installation. There is no standard for a worktop height (how could there be given we're all different height with length limbs?) and so unless it was specified beforehand then it's to spec as long as it is within bounds of reasonable expectation.

 

Edit: I stand corrected! Apparently ISO 3055:1985 states that food preparation should take place between 850mm and 1000mm. I think that only reinforces the point that this installation is well within spec though.

 

Or by 'poor installation' did you mean having the island worktop a different height? In which case, yeah, that's nuts and taking that route formalises the assumption that one of them is somehow 'wrong' and a compromise had to be found to make the situation tolerable.

 

Maybe we need motorised unit/worktop height adjusters, just in case someone buys us a pair of slippers for Christmas that have a slightly different sole thickness than the ones we wore whilst doing our builds? 

Edited January 29, 2022 by MJNewton

[epsilonGreedy]

4 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

There is no standard for a worktop height (how could there be given we're all different height with length limbs?) and so unless it was specified beforehand then it's to spec as long as it is within bounds of reasonable expectation.

 

 

 

If 90% of new UK kitchens are installed between 900mm and 940mm then there is your definition of reasonable expectation.