Should we proceed with demolition?

[vivienz]

We bought our plot in north Dorset with planning permission already in place to demolish the existing bungalow and build a new house.  The PP was granted in June 2016.

 

We will re-apply for PP as we want a different house to the one that was granted permission, but will still need to demolish as a first step.  We have engaged an architect but things are taking longer than I anticipated to get the house plans together; this isn't a criticism of the architect as I've never worked with one before and don't know how long these things should take. 

 

Given that once we are at the stage to submit for PP we will need to wait for at least 8 weeks and this seems to be a way off yet, is it worth getting ahead and proceeding with the demolition in the meantime, under the current PP?  I read somewhere that a notice of 6 weeks has to be given before demolition can start - I'm not sure of what this and any enlightenment would be appreciated.

 

Any thoughts, anyone?

[Russell griffiths]

I'm sure someone with far more knowledge than me can answer.  

 

But what is your rush, you could get the house down and the site cleared in next to no time. 

I would be very scared to knock something down without having the planning you want. 

 

Just to to let you know we used to get a pair of semis down in a day including pulling out the footings. Second day load it all up and scrape the site off. 

 

[vivienz]

I can't remember where I saw it on the forum, but I thought someone said something about having to give 6 weeks' notice before demolition commences, but this could have been to do with something else.  Also, there is an old concrete garage block and a septic tank that need to go, as well as possibly having bats removed from the roof space.

[Russell griffiths]

Whoooo there dobin. Slow down BATS to be removed. 

Have you looked into this it's not just a case of stuff them in a bird cage and move them off to some hollow tree. 

 

I think you need some some better advice here and also get all your facts correct so you can pass on the correct information. 

We have just spent thousands having an ecology survey done and we made sure that there where no bats whatsoever. 

 

I will Let the experts take over. 

[joe90]

I am not an expert but bats on our site caused a two year delay and cost a lot of money, this is why some unscrupulous builders make sure there are no bats on site before contacting the authorities. ?

[Jeremy Harris]

First off, you cannot touch, move, disturb or otherwise interfere with bats, of any species, unless you are licensed to do so.  If you do, then it's a criminal offence, with a hefty penalty.

 

So. the first thing is to gather information, and then you have to get a plan of action formulated that ensures you stay within the law.  If the bat roost is determined (by an expert) to be a summer roost, then you cannot do anything until the late autumn, when the bats will move to a hibernation roost.  If it's a winter hibernation roost, then you can only take action during the summer, and will still need a licensed person on hand as the roof is dismantled (which must be by hand - no ripping it off with a digger!).  The licensed person will rescue any trapped bats (often they will be under the felt, perhaps between the felt and the tiles).

 

So, the first thing to do is look at the ecology report and see what it says about bats.  If you are very lucky then it may be just a temporary feeding roost, which is the least onerous as you only need a licensed bat person around whilst you dismantle the roof by hand.  If it's either a hibernation roost or a maternity roost then you are in for a long and expensive load of hassle, I'm afraid...............

Edited April 25, 2017 by JSHarris

[ragg987]

We were in a similar position - though without PP, just an old bungalow. I held off demolition until we had all our ducks in a row. My logic was that if something changed (e.g. PP was going to be a major compromise against our requirement) then we still had the option to not proceed and could sell the existing house off and not have lost too much. Compared to spending money on demolition and then selling the land.

 

Once PP is granted, you will probably need a few weeks or months to get quotes in, select and book your groundworkers. This period can be used to demolish - there is a notice period we had to give our council (I think 6 weeks), however my demolition contractor forgot to give notice then called them and they granted it straight away, of course on payment of the fees.

 

Our 3-bedroom bungalow was down on day 1, footings dug out on day 2 and site cleared on day 3. This was all with a single man in a big digger-thingy.

 

Other things to watch out for:

Bats - can need surveys etc which could take forever - tied to seasons.

Asbestos - survey and specialist removal and disposal

Services disconnection - gas, electric, water, telephone. We had Thames Water and it took forever to sort that out.

[vivienz]

I understand that I need to get the bats removed and all that it involves - I don't think I expressed myself well as I include their removal as part of the demolition.  Again, this is why I am wondering about commencing under the existing PP rather than waiting for the new application as all this will take time.  My concern is that if things really drag on, we may face having to wait until next spring before we can do anything.

 

So, the original question stands - can I commence with demolition, removal of bats, etc, under the existing PP?

 

I should add that the original PP process had an ecological survey which confirmed (?) that there may (?) be bats using the roof space.

Edited April 25, 2017 by vivienz

[joe90]

Yes our two year delay was due to haveing a bat count done by a professional over two seasons to determine how many bats and what type of roosts existed gggggrrrrrrrr.

[joe90]

The ecologist report should state what procedures they require you to do and in what order and timescale ( and cost !!!)

[ragg987]

On bats, I was getting quoted quite high numbers by ecology companies including observations during variuos months of the year etc.

 

I rang the council on the off-chance and spoke to the ecology team, they offered a site visit for a nominal fee (about £50), and the chap poked around in the loft and said that there was evidence of bats but it was very old and nothing recent, so he issued a report giving us the all clear. PHEW!

[vivienz]

I guess that the one upside of this is that if I get the roof removed in order to relocate any bats, then the property is uninhabitable and I won't have to pay council tax any longer.  That alone will save £150 per month.

 

Off to read the ecology report. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by vivienz

[ProDave]

Does the house you want share the same footprint as the one already approved?

 

If so I would demolish the old, install the foundations (to lock in PP) then apply for the new design.

[Ferdinand]

@vivienz

 

My comments / suggestions. Not formal advice.

 

Ecology Report + Planning Conditions

 

I think reading the existing ecology report will give you a grounding in bat issues if you read it cover to cover, as there is likely to be 50% boilerplate basics included which is the same for every report. You also *must* be familiar with related Planning Conditions. The report will contain:

 

1 - An assessment of your site.

2 - Recommendations as to what you should do.

3 - Probably an expiry date beyond which the report is out date. Technically that means that you need a new report or the Ecologist or Bat Man to give you written evidence that it continues to be valid, which would require a further payment. It is often routine Councils to not notice such dates in subparagraph X.I.1.a (iii), so you may dodge that one if you keep quiet.

 

The Council Planning Permission will have a Planning Condition telling you what you are required to do, which typically would call out to the report. If the Condition is different to the report or only mentions parts of it, you should take note of the Planning Condition on the Planning Notice. 

 

Demolishing under Existing Planning Permission

 

You need to understand your bats and trees and all the other reports before you decide that. For bats:

 

To work out what you do under the existing PP, you need to talk to the relevant Council person (Planner / Naturaiist / Conservation Officer etc - find out who), and probably the Ecologist advising you,and ask them. You may get lucky as pointed out above - or not.

 

If you work with the existing PP, make sure that your new Planning Application is consistent with what you do. And check with your Planning Officer, Council Nature person, and your Ecologist / Bat Man to make sure you are OK.

 

Your new Planning App will need to relate to the situation you have now created by doing work, and of course they could set different Planning Conditions. I have never expored Council attitudes to doing half of one PP, then then second half of another one. It feels a bit "Here Be Dragons".

 

When you are are actually doing work with bats you will need a Licensed person to supervise / carry out the work. You may also need a specific License for the item of work from English Nature. Again, you need advice from your qualified adviser, who may organise it for you.

 

Intellectual Property

 

One other thing you need to know is whether you can use the Intellectual Property in the reports relating to the existing Planning Permission in the new Application. If you do not have permission, then you will either need entirely new reports, or to pay the authors for the right to use them. You may get away with the Council by eg just mentioning the previous report in the Design and Access Statement, or you may not, and you may receive expensive demands from irate Consultants. I am interested in others' experience here; I have never tried it.

 

If you have permission, it will be recorded in the documents around the sale of the plot. The best scenario is when these reports have been "Assigned" to you, which means that you have become the Client for those reports and benefit from eg the Liability Insurance of the author. Alternatively you may have just been granted the right to use the reports, or not have the right.

 

Hopefully the person who sold you the plot included a clause giving that right to their purchaser in their original contracts with their consultants, which was then written into your contract with yoru vendor.

 

What did you (or your solicitor) negotiate when you bought the plot?

 

My suggestion is that if you find you need a Licensed Bat Man, or new reports, then talk to the same person who wrote the first report - you will save as they already know the site. You may get free reuse of the existing report as a perk.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ferdinand

[vivienz]

Thanks Ferdinand, very helpful.  I will give the people who wrote the report a call and see where we stand.  None of this is an attempt to dodge needing to cater for the bats, but having an eye to timings of everything and to make sure that we're in a position to proceed as and when we get planning permission.  Of course, it may take a long time in the end, but there's no harm in getting things in place with the hope that it all goes smoothly.

[Ferdinand]

@vivienz

 

No problem :-). Bat welfare comes above your desire to build your house in the hierarchy of priorities, so you either a) Cater for them or b) Show that they have gone and will not be back. 

 

On this thread about build costs @Barney12 explains about his bat related expenses, which is perhaps a worst case.

 

If you want some amusement, this hyperbolic Telegraph column by Nicholas Coleridge is nicely written.

 

There are horror stories, but I am sure that in the large majority of cases it is all more or less OK.

 

F

        

   

[ToughButterCup]

16 hours ago, ragg987 said:

[...]  so he issued a report giving us the all clear. PHEW!

 

A very valuable piece of paper.

In relation to @vivienz's question, 

16 hours ago, vivienz said:

[...]

So, the original question stands - can I commence with demolition, removal of bats, etc, under the existing PP?

[...]

 

AFTER you have followed @Ferdinand's advice,  look very carefully at the conditions attached to your planning permission, and read the ecology survey that informed that PP. It would also be a good idea to check what other very local PPs have required (if there are any within a mile or so) in relation to echolocating mammals. Read the ecology reports very thoroughly and then look at the responses of the the LPAs expert feedback (ecologist who works for the LPA). Read every single one of them. Why?

 

In the ecology sector, expert opinion varies and a difference in opinion can make many thousands of pounds difference. I am still suffering the trauma, and will tell anyone who listens - on the basis of direct evidence -  exactly what I think of the professional opinions of Ecologists. Luckily for you I've got a door to strip, paint and otherwise titivate.  If you want chapter and verse, PM me when I have calmed down later today.

Ian

[Carrerahill]

20 hours ago, vivienz said:

Given that once we are at the stage to submit for PP we will need to wait for at least 8 weeks and this seems to be a way off yet, is it worth getting ahead and proceeding with the demolition in the meantime, under the current PP?  I read somewhere that a notice of 6 weeks has to be given before demolition can start - I'm not sure of what this and any enlightenment would be appreciated.

 

Any thoughts, anyone?

 

I would call them up, draw their attention to your planning application number and say I would like to notify you that we are going to proceed to demolish the building as per your approval are you happy for me to begin - they will probably just say yes, and I would ask for them to send this to you in an email at the time too.

 

You can now demolish safe in the knowledge you have done this correctly.

 

Then submit your new planning application. On that planning application you can simply ask for planning for the new building and state that under previous planning the house was removed. Waiting for them to grant new PP will set you back a fair bit - mind you, depends on the house but I would imagine it could be down and cleared in less than a week.

 

Edit:

 

Just read the bats bit - game changer - no luck!

 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Carrerahill

[Temp]

Got a feeling you can't move bats from May to October  when they are breeding? Never had the problem myself.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, Temp said:

Got a feeling you can't move bats from May to October  when they are breeding? Never had the problem myself.

Depends which kind of roost it is, that's for a breeding roost, the other type is a hibernation roost, I know ?

[Jeremy Harris]

Depending on species, there can be three types of roost, maternity roosts, which are spring through summer, hibernation roosts, which are late autumn through till spring and foraging roosts, that are temporary stopovers during the active season, often used for just a short period whilst a particular type of food is on the wing nearby.  Pipistrelles (both species) tend to use stopover roosts a fair bit, as they switch from one feeding area to another.

 

(sad, I know, but my late father in law was a bat warden, so I accidentally absorbed a fair bit about their habits..........)