Cost per m2 to first fix

[Rossek9]

We are in the process trying to get prices together for our build.

I have a rough idea of how much the internal fit out will cost based on previous houses/flats we have renovated but have no experience of a full build.

 

How much do folk think is a reasonable price per m2 to pay to get a project to first fix? 

 

So basically a completed 'shell' by a builder with us left to complete the internal fit out ourselves. 

 

If it helps the spec is -

 

Ali clad triple glazing

Timber fame (0.17 U value for walls and 0.15 U value for roof, although these may become better if budget allows)

Block outer leaf with render

Slate roof

Aluminium rain water goods inc fascia/sofits (hopefully )

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

I suppose you could work back from a price of (say) £1350 per square meter for the complete job? 

The most common average price for a build seem to range between £1200 to £1500. There are always local variations as a quick read of SPONS will testify.

 

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

The most common average price for a build seem to range between

Average or range, not both

[Jeremy Harris]

The breakdown for us was around £420/m² for the foundations, frame construction and erection, insulation, airtightness etc.  Glazing and external doors (all triple glazed, passive house stuff) added another £65/m², roofing, gutters, fascias downpipes etc (excluding in-roof PV panels - add around another 30% to this if not fitting in-roof PV) £70/m², external cladding (our house has a larch outer skin) about £30/m².  I've left the detached garage costs out of this.

 

The total to first fix, excluding the ground works that just levelled the site and put in cable ducts/drain pipes etc, came to about £585/m², round this to about £600/m² to allow for inflation and add a bit because a large part of our roof is covered by in-roof solar panels, and if we'd not had those there would have been another £2000 or so of roofing cost, so say around £615 to £620/m² to first fix and you'll be in the right ball park.  Your block outer skin may cost a bit more than our larch cladding, but to offset that, our frame has 300mm of insulation in the walls and 400mm in the roof (and there's 300mm of insulation under the floor slab), so our U values are a lot better than you're aiming at (we're 0.1W/m².K roof and floor, 0.12 W/m².K walls, with glazing that's around 0.7 W/m².K).

 

Our completed build cost came out at about £1340/m², more than I'd wanted, but we did end up going for more expensive stuff internally than I thought we would.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by JSHarris

[Redoctober]

Our TF, which should provide a U Value of  0.12 W/m².K has been costed out and that is hitting £260 per sq. metre. This doesn't include windows or external doors but does include erection costs.

All the other elements such as Utilities, Foundations, Slates, rainwater goods, external wall etc., which haven't been finalised as yet, will bring that figure, into the area mentioned by @JSHarris. [Hopefully! ]

 

PW.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

FWIW, we had some prices for an insulated passive slab foundation from three suppliers, and they all came out about the same at around £11k for an 85m² external ground floor area (so including the wing insulation), excluding the UFH pipes that were included in our frame and foundation price.  So, the foundation element of our build was about 25% of the total frame and foundation cost, allowing for things like the UFH pipes etc, which means we paid a bit more than you for the frame, insulation, sarking, membranes etc, at about £315/m², with the insulated slab foundations and UFH pipes accounting for around £105/m².  I know our frame cost was a bit higher because we have a room in roof design, with a big laminated ridge beam and the rafters hung from that, and that all had to be cut and built on-site.  I've been told that the frame would have been around £40/m² less if we'd had a standard trussed roof.

Edited January 29, 2017 by JSHarris

[Rossek9]

50 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

The breakdown for us was around £420/m² for the foundations, frame construction and erection, insulation, airtightness etc.  Glazing and external doors (all triple glazed, passive house stuff) added another £65/m², roofing, gutters, fascias downpipes etc (excluding in-roof PV panels - add around another 30% to this if not fitting in-roof PV) £70/m², external cladding (our house has a larch outer skin) about £30/m².  I've left the detached garage costs out of this.

 

The total to first fix, excluding the ground works that just levelled the site and put in cable ducts/drain pipes etc, came to about £585/m², round this to about £600/m² to allow for inflation and add a bit because a large part of our roof is covered by in-roof solar panels, and if we'd not had those there would have been another £2000 or so of roofing cost, so say around £615 to £620/m² to first fix and you'll be in the right ball park.  Your block outer skin may cost a bit more than our larch cladding, but to offset that, our frame has 300mm of insulation in the walls and 400mm in the roof (and there's 300mm of insulation under the floor slab), so our U values are a lot better than you're aiming at (we're 0.1W/m².K roof and floor, 0.12 W/m².K walls, with glazing that's around 0.7 W/m².K).

 

Our completed build cost came out at about £1340/m², more than I'd wanted, but we did end up going for more expensive stuff internally than I thought we would.

 

 

 Many thanks for the detailed response. It's also great to see you posting again.

 

We have had a couple of timber frame quotes back and I was a bit surprise/concerned. One came back at £550m2 (this included foundations) and the other came back around £455m2 (although this didn't include foundations). Both were passive house builders so I expected them to be a little high but not that price!!

 

Would certainly like to use the first company but I cant see us getting to first fix for £620m2 using them.

 

Doing our number crunching I think we really need to be coming in at £1200m2 (not including landscaping). 

 

Looking at your figures your frame, foundations ect were around 1/3rd of your total spend, so £550m2 isn't going to work for us it would seem.

 

I am awaiting on another couple of 'standard' timber frame companies coming back with prices so may well have to go down this route.

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Rossek9

[Jeremy Harris]

Our target was £1200/m²......................

[Rossek9]

22 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

Our TF, which should provide a U Value of  0.12 W/m².K has been costed out and that is hitting £260 per sq. metre. This doesn't include windows or external doors but does include erection costs.

All the other elements such as Utilities, Foundations, Slates, rainwater goods, external wall etc., which haven't been finalised as yet, will bring that figure, into the area mentioned by @JSHarris. [Hopefully! ]

 

PW.

 

 

What timber frame company is this? 

[Rossek9]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

Our target was £1200/m²......................

 

Always the way going over budget!!!

Our issue is that if we go over around £1350m2 all in (including landscaping) then I suspect we will have spent more than the value of the finished build.

[Jeremy Harris]

That was our fear, but then we weren't too fussed as long as we could afford it and we got the house we wanted, as we don't intend to sell it.

[Rossek9]

Yes this will be our home for a long time (I suspect) although we are yet to have children so things may change in the future.

 

I wouldn't like to be in a position where we were to sell and not get the money back we had spent...............not to mention all the hard work.

 

All these folk that think that building your own home saves you thousands are kidding them self's 

[Redoctober]

36 minutes ago, Rossek9 said:

 

What timber frame company is this? 

 

I will PM you the details but this is the thing with self building - You have to understand what it is you want from the build and how it is going to serve you in the future. Like most self builders, ours will be our retirement home - we are not looking to sell it on anytime soon so the costs involved are irrelevant - [to a degree!]. If you are looking to sell it on within say 10 years, you have to ask yourselves do you hold back on the spec in order to maximise the profit when the time comes or do you invest the money in an existing house and convert it to your requirements with extensions etc. instead?

PW.

[Rossek9]

5 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

 

I will PM you the details but this is the thing with self building - You have to understand what it is you want from the build and how it is going to serve you in the future. Like most self builders, ours will be our retirement home - we are not looking to sell it on anytime soon so the costs involved are irrelevant - [to a degree!]. If you are looking to sell it on within say 10 years, you have to ask yourselves do you hold back on the spec in order to maximise the profit when the time comes or do you invest the money in an existing house and convert it to your requirements with extensions etc. instead?

PW.

 

I guess we are at a different stage in life than most self builders so it does make sense to think ahead.

We have moved from flats, to houses and now the'plan is to build a big enough house so we can start a family and not have to move for a long time.

 

Trying to do DIY with cats is hard enough without having kids to worry about!!

 

[Jeremy Harris]

To be honest, the future selling price will be a complete lottery, anyway.  We have had periodic "boom and bust" cycles with house prices over the last few decades, and you could very easily lose 20 to 30% of the price in a "bust" cycle, whether it was a self-build or any other house purchase.

 

For example, we lived down in Cornwall for around 16 years and bought our second house (a move up from the terraced cottage that was our first home) in 1988.  We paid around £78k for it, IIRC, and I then bought the adjacent joiners workshop, some land and a row of three garages for an additional £15k about 6 months afterwards, renting them out to cover the increase in the mortgage.  At that point we felt lucky.  We'd made a handsome profit on selling our first house (but I had spent two years renovating and rewiring it), and had got about a 60% mortgage on the new house (which also needed renovation, it was a cottage built in around 1768).

 

Then, with virtually no warning, in 1992 my job disappeared, as the research establishment I was working at was closed down.  Like many who'd joined the old Scientific Civil Service, I wasn't offered redundancy, but told to move to run another research establishment, in Scotland.  Back then, my employment contract was very like being in the services, my employer had the right to move me anywhere in the world, as long as they gave me 6 weeks notice and paid my removal and legal costs.  So, I moved into a rented cottage in Portpatrick, Dumfries and Galloway, whilst we tried to sell the house in Cornwall that we'd paid a total of £93k for.  We were told by my employer that we couldn't sell just the house and keep the workshop and garages, as if we did they wouldn't pay any of our legal fees or removal costs.  My wife stayed behind for the year it took to sell the old house, and it eventually sold for £56k, so we lost £37k on what we'd paid for it.  We bought a new house in Scotland for £55k, and ended up with around a 90% mortgage!

 

I believe the same thing happened again a few years ago, with house prices plummeting and people losing loads of money if they had to sell at that time.

 

So, I don't think you can ever bank on a house going up in value, or a self-build even breaking even when completed, as it just takes another crash to wipe out any gain you might make.

Edited January 29, 2017 by JSHarris

[Ferdinand]

Even in London, fluctuations are rather less than the wibbling attention-seeking people who need to sell newspapers or keep their support-bases in palpitations keep telling us.

 

This is (RPI I think) inflation adjusted 1988 to 2014 The biggest fluctuation in London was a plus and minus 10-15% in 2 years after the Brown bust.

 

 

From

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/five-signs-london-property-bubble-reaching-unsustainable-proportions

 

(The original article is imo rather fanciful.)

 

And here is one from the FT - also London:

 

 

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2013/10/15/1666322/wait-what-the-enormous-unnoticed-collapse-in-london-property-prices/

(A much better article)

Edited January 29, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

32 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

So, I don't think you can ever bank on a house going up in value, or a self-build even breaking even when completed, as it just takes another crash to wipe out any gain you might make.

 

All true, and though you can certainly build houses in such a way as to make a profit on average (eg as a big landlord you should currently arguably be investing in eg the fringes of Crewe for 20 year capital returns and decent rental returns - HS2), but for self-builders with an estate of one (or perhaps two) the risk is not spread and the priorities need to be different. 

 

The risk mitigation for self-builders is perhaps smoothing over time rather than smoothing over a range of assets.

 

Even aiming to try will and invest for a return may distort choices, though it can be a useful subsidiary goal imo.

F

Edited January 29, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

Thanks Ferdinand - that plot shows EXACTLY where we got caught out - buying at the peak around 1988 and having to sell at near the bottom of the dip in 1993!  We couldn't possibly have timed things worse, although we had no way of knowing what was going to happen a few years after we bought the house.

[Ferdinand]

23 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Thanks Ferdinand - that plot shows EXACTLY where we got caught out - buying at the peak around 1988 and having to sell at near the bottom of the dip in 1993!  We couldn't possibly have timed things worse, although we had no way of knowing what was going to happen a few years after we bought the house.

 

I bought my first house in 88/89. Was pretty tough at 15% interest rates and at one stage I nearly lost the house.

 

Fortunately I still have it so never lost any equity, though it has been an albatross to an extent by discouraging me from buying elsewhere until recently - rented in London for 8 years, including being offered a 400sqft 1 bed sunless flat on a short lease in EC2 for 70k plus 12.5k for a lease extension in 1999. Now sell for about £400k :-). But service charge was £3k.

 

This is a better one in the same block for 475k. 

http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/40536360#KWXRHQMXQkvx6O5o.97

 

Mansion Block ROFL. It was a Victorian slum clearance project near Wesley's Chapel.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Rossek9]

Some good points above folks.

 

The last house price crash actually worked in our favor as we weren't selling (decided to keep as an investment and rent out) so manged to get £40k off the house we were buying.

 

[SteamyTea]

55 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

buying at the peak around 1988 and having to sell at near the bottom of the dip in 1993

Two unique things happen in that period though.

The first was the removal of double tax relief on mortgage repayments (August 1989) and the UK falling out of the ERM (sept 1992).

The first one can never be repeated and it led to a very rapid rise in property prices (doubling prices in some areas in 5 months), we also had much higher taxation levels and smaller personal allowances.  We also had a Chancellor that did not know what to do (Lamont), so interest rates, which had been gentle falling for a decade (from a 1980 peak of 16%) to a 1989 low of 7.5%, suddenly shot up to 15%.  They then had a rapid decline over about 18 month to about 6%, stabilising at around 5% between 1995 and 2008.  That stability was brought about by Gordon Brown handing over interest rate control to the Bank of England (if we want to know one good thing he did, it was that).

 

Two other things that happened is trading barriers were removed between us and the EU (who remembers 1992), and global trade increased massively (what the Boris and Trump tapped into).  This suppressed inflation by causing deflation in labour costs on manufactured goods (but not domestic infrastructure projects).  This freed up cash for the public to spend on other things.

And they did spend, on better cars (BMWs and Mercs were rare in 1885) and also helped to drive house inflation (the public likes to spend money).

 

Some of those things are probably not going to happen again (tax relief, government control of interest rates, reduced trading barriers).  When people are uncertain they put their money into safe investments, property is one of them, as is gold and alcohol and tobacco shares).

 

What I find amazing is that the British public still believe that there is security in high housing costs, I would have thought that a quick look at the last 30 years of the British housing market would have shown that it is anything but.

We still do it though

Edited January 29, 2017 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

The double MIRAS thing caused such a rise in house prices because they didn't say we are ending it tomorrow, but we will end it in 6 months time (might not have been 6 months, but it was certainly a long time) that created an artificial and by it's very nature, a short term property boom because just about anyone thinking of buying or moving did so in that period to qualify for double MIRAS. Of course once they had all moved / bought their first house, there was the very predictable slump as all those thinking of moving or buying had, and they would not want to move again because they would lose their double MIRAS.

 

I was caught up in this as I wanted to sell my 1 bedroom starter home and move up to a proper house, it went on the market, and nobody came. I took it off the market for a year and tried again, and it still took nearly a year to sell.

 

I seem to have a habit of picking the wrong time to sell. It must be a dream to put your house on the market, have lots of people viewing immediately and have an offer in 2 weeks. It has certainly never happened to me. TIP: don't try selling your house when I am, as it will probably be the wrong time to sell.

 

If just selling a house and buying another, then as long as you are not in negative equity, then a drop in prices also means you will pay less for the new one. But as a self builder, you can end up in the situation I am in, that I have almost run out of money to build the new one, and can't find a buyer for the old one.

 

I have always thought increasing or reducing interest rates as a way to boost, or slow down the economy was at the best a VERY blunt instrument, and at worse totally ineffective. If that were the case, then the record low rates we have now should have the economy well and truly overheated, but it hasn't.
 

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If just selling a house and buying another, then as long as you are not in negative equity, then a drop in prices also means you will pay less for the new one. But as a self builder, you can end up in the situation I am in, that I have almost run out of money to build the new one, and can't find a buyer for the old one.

That would be true if we traded in houses i.e. they were the currency.

There are other pressures on our cash though that come into play.

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I have always thought increasing or reducing interest rates as a way to boost, or slow down the economy was at the best a VERY blunt instrument, and at worse totally ineffective. If that were the case, then the record low rates we have now should have the economy well and truly overheated, but it hasn't.

Or is shows what a basket case our economy really is.

[Barney12]

Sorry late to the party:

 

£27.00 per square meter on Demolition

£115.00 per square meter for initial groundworks (hoping to be a lot less)

£440.00 per square meter: foundations, frame construction and erection, insulation, airtightness etc

£184.00 per square meter for glazing..........OUCH!

I've budgeted another £138 per square meter for; blockwork, rendering, roofing, roof line and rainwater goods. I was hoping that was high. Now I'm not so sure :(.

 

Oh and £92 per square meter on ECOLOGY! [INSERT LARGE QUANTITY OF SWEAR WORDS]

 

So I'm up to £858.00 per square meter for the above

 

Some days I wish I had never started!

[Rossek9]

1 hour ago, Barney12 said:

Sorry late to the party:

 

£27.00 per square meter on Demolition

£115.00 per square meter for initial groundworks (hoping to be a lot less)

£440.00 per square meter: foundations, frame construction and erection, insulation, airtightness etc

£184.00 per square meter for glazing..........OUCH!

I've budgeted another £138 per square meter for; blockwork, rendering, roofing, roof line and rainwater goods. I was hoping that was high. Now I'm not so sure :(.

 

Oh and £92 per square meter on ECOLOGY! [INSERT LARGE QUANTITY OF SWEAR WORDS]

 

So I'm up to £858.00 per square meter for the above

 

Some days I wish I had never started!

 

Thanks for the information Barney.

 

Ecology we are speaking to at the moment and trying to get our costings together. How come they came to £92 per square meter? 

 

Is the frame and foundations from MBC by any chance?

 

Have you got quotes for the block, render ect?

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Rossek9