Question about kingspan

[saveasteading]

Not good. The width appears to be cut very neatly, so why not the length as well?

 

I consider expanding foam to be for emergency use (and window fitting) only. it is uncontrollable and will expand from where you want it into other voids. In this case it will likely link the PIR to the sarking: not that anyone will see it but it is not meant to be there and could cause problems..

 

Meanwhile in a steading in the highlands this has been happening. Self-built with time and care, but there are unavoidable tiny gaps. The cut-outs for the ties will be filled with mineral wool. I will start a new thread on thoughts and progress. 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

35 minutes ago, ETC said:

The BCO should never change construction methods detailed on a BBA Certificate.

You may want to tell that to a number of LABC inspectors I’ve come across in the past 10 years who have argued the toss about what is correct vs what is on a BBA certificate. 

 

39 minutes ago, ETC said:

The BCO will not “sign” anything off

Can you explain what a completion certificate is then if it isn’t a sign off that the works have been constructed to the relevant Building Regulations ..?? As that’s the wording pretty much as is on most completion certificates in England and Wales. 

[saveasteading]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

what a completion certificate is then if it isn’t a sign off that the works have been constructed to the relevant Building Regulations ..?

I think there are some very all-encompassing exclusions and get-outs in the sign-off. It covers what the BCO has seen (which is snapshots) and does not include all the work or all the quality. The checking Engineer does not know all the context either.

 

For example if a concrete footing was laid on ice and on a frosty day, the BCO would not know if it was understrength. If some reinforcement was missing? If some of the timbers were ungraded instead of C24? And so on.

Not only accidental or through ignorance but, from tales I have heard from BCO, of deliberate deception.

 

If the BCO was a Clerk of Works then we would all have to allow for the costs and delays for full-time attendance, and a heavy insurance premium

[ETC]

59 minutes ago, PeterW said:

You may want to tell that to a number of LABC inspectors I’ve come across in the past 10 years who have argued the toss about what is correct vs what is on a BBA certificate. 

 

Can you explain what a completion certificate is then if it isn’t a sign off that the works have been constructed to the relevant Building Regulations ..?? As that’s the wording pretty much as is on most completion certificates in England and Wales. 

You should read the wording of a Completion Certificate very carefully. There’s a big caveat in the text.

[Mr Punter]

If you or you builder foam the gaps with a foam gun it will make a much better job.  I quite like a bit of foaming and you should not need too many cans.  Trim back the following day.

 

With thick insulation it is easier to cut the insulation a bit small and then foam in tight.  I don't like to have to remove a board for a trim-up.

[JOE187]

HI Mike

 Below is the info from Protect, suggest you contact there technical for u value calc missing off the 30mm kingspan and install 25 x50 counter battern then plasterboard. gives service cavity then.

Protect VC Foil Ultra

 

Protect VC Foil Ultra - low emissivity and reflective air and vapour control layer (AVCL) suitable for timber, masonry or steel construction. This highly reflective vapour control layer enhances the thermal performance of walls, ceilings and floors when installed with the foil facing into a still airspace. The Protect VC Foil Ultra vapour control later helps to achieve a low overall U-value as part of the wall build up.

 

[saveasteading]

9 minutes ago, JOE187 said:

missing off the 30mm kingspan and install 25 x50 counter batten then plasterboard. gives service cavity then.

We have had this discussion before.

I think the conclusion was that a metallic foil face onto an air gap is good, but not as good as the figures allowed in the calculations.

ie in time the foil is not so shiny (even in the dark) and the effect reduces towards that  to any other surface.

So to some extent you can use it to tick the box on the U value calculation and improve the rating considerably, and get some real benefit, but the reality will be slightly ;less.

Therefore probably the pir performs a lot better than the air gap.

 

BUT that service void is very practical. It allows the services to pass unseen, but also means that sockets etc that are under 30mm will not break the VCL. 

 

Conclusion: we will go for the shiny membrane because we might as well and it takes up no thickness, and the void will help in the reduction of accidental draughts that the electrician /plumber might not be interested in.

[JOE187]

Yes agree with you, but aLso protect ultra is an expensive reflective VCL and so would not cover it with a layer of PIR Board.

[Mike_scotland]

so i spoke to the builder today and he said the insulation is fine..... i know it isnt fine whats the next step?? building control?

he also says the insulation with the damage is acceptable aslong as its not all the way through..... Crap!

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Mike_scotland

[joe90]

9 minutes ago, Mike_scotland said:

Crap!

I agree, if it were me I would buy a foam gun (better control than foam from a can) and foam all those gaps trying to not let too much foam go too far back, trim the next day. Cold air through those gaps will deplete the u value a lot. (Doing this will not piss your builder off either ?).

[Mike_scotland]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I agree, if it were me I would buy a foam gun (better control than foam from a can) and foam all those gaps trying to not let too much foam go too far back, trim the next day. Cold air through those gaps will deplete the u value a lot. (Doing this will not piss your builder off either ?).

im beginning to think if i let him slip more and more what next? this is only by chance i caught this as well....

[markc]

3 minutes ago, Mike_scotland said:

im beginning to think if i let him slip more and more what next? this is only by chance i caught this as well....

That’s why Joe’s suggestion is a good compromise, they are not doing re work but see that you are not happy and want the gaps filled. Yes you have to do something but that’s better than them walking away or getting really annoyed. A bit of give and  take will get you a better build and much less aggravation.

Edited November 29, 2021 by markc

[Mike_scotland]

4 minutes ago, markc said:

That’s why Joe’s suggestion is a good compromise, they are not doing re work but see that you are not happy and want the gaps filled. Yes you have to do something but that’s better than them walking away or getting really annoyed. A bit of give and  take will get you a better build and much less aggravation.

walking away from a full house build due to the fact they have messed up insulation, you really think that is a possibility? (im saying this as a genuine question)

this is meant to be a full build from the builder a turnkey like package, not me controlling trades.

im just a tad aggrieved because im paying good money for what looks like 80% a job lol. im unsure if filling the gaps will help as others on this thread are stating it wont really help.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Mike_scotland

[crispy_wafer]

As others have said, it'd be nice if the boards were butted together, but it's not an insurmountable problem.  Get a foam gun, get some foam and some manky clobber on, and fill the gaps up yourself - good excuse to get hands on and do a bit. Start at one end of the space and work your way down to the other end.  Might take you an hour or so, but it'll be worth it.  Trim off the next day or in a few hours then tape it over, It'll then be ready for your foil, and next layer of board. 

 

May as well make a decent job of it, even if its going to be hidden behind tape, foil, board etc.

[Mike_scotland]

1 minute ago, crispy_wafer said:

As others have said, it'd be nice if the boards were butted together, but it's not an insurmountable problem.  Get a foam gun, get some foam and some manky clobber on, and fill the gaps up yourself - good excuse to get hands on and do a bit. Start at one end of the space and work your way down to the other end.  Might take you an hour or so, but it'll be worth it.  Trim off the next day or in a few hours then tape it over, It'll then be ready for your foil, and next layer of board. 

 

May as well make a decent job of it, even if its going to be hidden behind tape, foil, board etc.

100% understand... but im not meant to really be on the tools lol im paying the builder for taking control

[markc]

As a turnkey package then the contractor walking away is unlikely, the labour on the other hand is very likely leaving you with possible delays etc.

of course you are aggrieved, just try to find an amicable solution rather than going in all guns blazing as you have a long way to go. Tell them that you are not happy and are going to try to rectify the problem yourself and you will deduct the cost at the end …. This could well spur them into sorting it out and being more diligent in future.

[Mr Punter]

Like we have said, get a foam gun and a few cans of foam and spend an hour having a good squirt.  By the end of the hour you should be good at using the gun.  Leave the can in the gun after use.  Total cost will be less than £50.

[Mike_scotland]

Just now, Mr Punter said:

Like we have said, get a foam gun and a few cans of foam and spend an hour having a good squirt.  By the end of the hour you should be good at using the gun.  Leave the can in the gun after use.  Total cost will be less than £50.

any whatever i decide to charge as my hourly rate haha

[joe90]

This will let the builder know you are keeping an eye on the him  / standards, if you don’t want to do it then tell the builder to foam the gaps as you find that unacceptable, this is a bit like the dot and dab debate, air leakage causing heat loss problems. This is a reason why most here (like me) don’t think most builders understand passive build techniques which a lot of the time are down to the small details.

[Mike_scotland]

5 minutes ago, joe90 said:

This will let the builder know you are keeping an eye on the him  / standards, if you don’t want to do it then tell the builder to foam the gaps as you find that unacceptable, this is a bit like the dot and dab debate, air leakage causing heat loss problems. This is a reason why most here (like me) don’t think most builders understand passive build techniques which a lot of the time are down to the small details.

i have had the discussion stating our unhappyness and he has said its fine... so im wondering what to do next to prove my point...

either BCO who may and should know and tell him it needs done or kingspan technical department to email me with proof.

[Mr Punter]

Can you talk on the phone to BCO and if he is on side, ask him to meet with the builder on site to discuss?

[Mike_scotland]

1 minute ago, Mr Punter said:

Can you talk on the phone to BCO and if he is on side, ask him to meet with the builder on site to discuss?

 

possibly yes, that doesnt sound like a bad idea... i have to imagine the BCO would be on side if its not correct practice to fit the insulation like the way he has.

[Makeitstop]

3 hours ago, markc said:

That’s why Joe’s suggestion is a good compromise, they are not doing re work but see that you are not happy and want the gaps filled. Yes you have to do something but that’s better than them walking away or getting really annoyed. A bit of give and  take will get you a better build and much less aggravation.

 

Yes, I suppose it is, but at the same time, the customer is entitled to request any element of a build is as it should be, and should not really be having to go around after the "professionals" doing remedial jobs.

 

At the end of it all, no matter how it's viewed, this is arguably the most valuable asset anyone owns, and if someone is going to the enormous aggro of building their own home, they are well within their rights to want it done "as it should be done".

 

I'd sort these gaps myself yes, but I'd let the builder know I was going to do that. I'd also let him know I expect critical elements of the work to be done well, and by done well, I mean AS IT REALLY OUGHT TO BE, and not as most customers may accept it being.

 

To add.... as I hadn't read the last few posts...

 

Yes, BCO is a good shout, as is a discussion with Kingspan technical.

 

You'll know where you are then for sure.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Makeitstop

[TonyT]

Probably too late but you should have got every floor/wall signed off prior to plasterboarding/ flooring to allow inspect and remedy any defects before the builder hides them forever

[saveasteading]

Gaps are completely unacceptable. Building Inspector will understand and agree, but may not wish to be involved in your contract dispute.

 

Damage is careless and a concern re standards throughout, but barely affects the insulation level.

 

If you allow the use of foam spray fill, will you trust them to get it to full thickness yet not fill the void? I would be concerned re their attitude and attention to detail.

 

There is no reason to expect that your builder will understand the science of insulation. Sometimes they just have to be told. I have many a story on this, but not now.