Design considerations for new homes

[SteamyTea]

Over the last 50 years or so, we have got used to a lot of things getting smaller, the main exception is vehicles, ships and aeroplanes.

Our homes, in the UK have definitely got smaller, so small that a sub 50m² house is not unusual.

This is causing a problem when it comes to fitting all the energy conservation measures needed.  It is not unusual for people on here to say they do not have the room for a cylinder, or a HP, MVHR gets wedged into a loft where it is hard to swap the filters.  Roofs with odd angles and protrusions that will make a PV installation difficult, or even pointless.

So when you comes to design your dream home, forget what has happened in the past, and design with these consideration in mind from the start.

 

It will save you cash.

[joe90]

This is the main reason that fir my retirement house it was a new build and not a renovation like I have been doing for many years. No compromises. We have thick (400mm) walls and the common comment is “your rooms must be small”, but the walls are added to the room size so the outside dimensions are greater. I cannot think of anything with our new build that is a compromise ?. (But I had been planning it fir aver 20 years ?).

[ProDave]

Yes as a lot of us, my new build was designed for what we want, not somebody elses idea of what that might be.

 

The main one was probably our roof build.  It's 1 1/2 storey or room in roof and I most certainly did not want a normal roof with dormers.  There is something about dormers that I hate. So we came up with the "gable end" design which I first saw are relatively common on the isle of Skye which gives you a much more open roof space with nearly all the roof space having usable height. And being hung from ridge beams means you can have vaulted ceilings right to the ridge if you want to.

 

The other thing I wanted to avoid was pokey narrow corridors.

 

There are not many things that I would change if doing it again.

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I cannot think of anything with our new build that is a compromise

Lack of PV on the roof.

The Wood burner.

The other occupants.

Bottled Gas hob.

Lack of sound insulation between rooms.

 

 

Apart from that, it is a very nice house.

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Lack of PV on the roof.

The Wood burner.

The other occupants.

Bottled Gas hob.

Lack of sound insulation between rooms.

My PV is ground mounted

Nothing wrong with my room sealed wood burner, in fact I am very pleased with it and would buy the same again

Other occupants is your life choices.

Nothing wrong with an LPG hob if you want gas and don't have mains.

I designed our bedroom and daughters bedroom to be opposite sides of the stairwell so 2 insulated walls between us.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

...forget what has happened in the past, and design with these consideration in mind from the start....

 

In a sentence, the reason for  (us) to fit a SunAmp.

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Over the last 50 years or so, we have got used to a lot of things getting smaller, the main exception is vehicles, ships and aeroplanes.

 

 

And people...

[joe90]

39 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Lack of PV on the roof.

The Wood burner.

The other occupants.

Bottled Gas hob.

Lack of sound insulation between rooms.

 

 

Apart from that, it is a very nice house.

That’s because it was designed to go on the garage roof

i only use timber felled on site because it needs trimming, room sealed and like  @ProDave would buy another

her indoors and guests?????

only because I was overruled on an induction hob

yes, in hindsight I would have provided more (I have 20.20 hindsight).

[MikeSharp01]

We did have to compromise on the site to build where we wanted to but we still have 150m2 house and a 30m2 garden room with 460mm thick walls (340mm of insulation). The PV is all on the garden room (worst case is tiny amounts of shade at one time of year), we have enough wood burners here at millstone manor to know we didn't want one in Whitstable, just Jackie and me really - and we get on just fine (mostly) but room for the kids to visit together if they want, we have laid in gas pipe but will not have gas as we want rid (dont we), not yet fitted sound insulation but the layout means that its floors between bedrooms so I need to pack it tight - but it should be better than 100mm walls do you not think.

 

We designed out the tank because of the grief JSH described on his path from conventional thinking to Sunamp - so we will be with @ToughButterCup on that one. We have also chosen ASHP as our space heating solution, UFH with three towel rails and I am working on designing out any sort of buffer tank. I have not purchased the ASHP yet as I am waiting for the promised, by HMG, price drop when everybody has to get one  - no really don't need it cluttering up the site. Just got to get a very quiet one as it will run mostly over night on E7. I won't hijack this thread by asking for recommendations (we need only a 6Kw device anyway)

[ToughButterCup]

... And why I have to design and build our wardrobes and cabinets....

[Thedreamer]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Over the last 50 years or so, we have got used to a lot of things getting smaller, the main exception is vehicles, ships and aeroplanes.

Our homes, in the UK have definitely got smaller, so small that a sub 50m² house is not unusual.

This is causing a problem when it comes to fitting all the energy conservation measures needed.  It is not unusual for people on here to say they do not have the room for a cylinder, or a HP, MVHR gets wedged into a loft where it is hard to swap the filters.  Roofs with odd angles and protrusions that will make a PV installation difficult, or even pointless.

So when you comes to design your dream home, forget what has happened in the past, and design with these consideration in mind from the start.

 

It will save you cash.

 

The more recent smaller homes would have been purchased by younger buyers with less capital.  Why would home builders design larger homes if it eats into their profits? I presume you are referring to developer homes, as I would imagine 50m2 self build would be unusual?

 

Linking average UK homes with self builds is not comparable. Most of the builds on here will be self builds designed towards retirement. The majority would have been funded or partly funded by the release of capital from previously owned property.

 

Our self build is the only property we have ever owned. It was so difficult to borrow money to build a fairly modest home at 140m2. 

[Ferdinand]

33 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

We did have to compromise on the site to build where we wanted to but we still have 150m2 house and a 30m2 garden room with 460mm thick walls (340mm of insulation). The PV is all on the garden room (worst case is tiny amounts of shade at one time of year), we have enough wood burners here at millstone manor to know we didn't want one in Whitstable, just Jackie and me really - and we get on just fine (mostly) but room for the kids to visit together if they want, we have laid in gas pipe but will not have gas as we want rid (dont we), not yet fitted sound insulation but the layout means that its floors between bedrooms so I need to pack it tight - but it should be better than 100mm walls do you not think.

 

We designed out the tank because of the grief JSH described on his path from conventional thinking to Sunamp - so we will be with @ToughButterCup on that one. We have also chosen ASHP as our space heating solution, UFH with three towel rails and I am working on designing out any sort of buffer tank. I have not purchased the ASHP yet as I am waiting for the promised, by HMG, price drop when everybody has to get one  - no really don't need it cluttering up the site. Just got to get a very quiet one as it will run mostly over night on E7. I won't hijack this thread by asking for recommendations (we need only a 6Kw device anyway)

 

There'll be a price drop, but it is not a brand new technology so it won't be revolutionary imo.

 

The Europe wide ASHP market is a 1.6 million in 2019, compared to 30k or so in the UK, which will double to 65k in 2021. 

 

We might tend to the French price level, whatever that is, with their 300k per year market.

https://www.ehpa.org/market-data/market-report-2021/

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

The more recent smaller homes would have been purchased by younger buyers with less capital.  Why would home builders design larger homes if it eats into their profits? I presume you are referring to developer homes, as I would imagine 50m2 self build would be unusual?

I don't think the smaller homes, as a complete package, cost the developer any more.  They would just offer less for the land, or ask for more land.  They are supplying to a price point, not to a size point.

Not really the point I am making though.

If we transition from natural gas, to alternative heating systems, we need space to install the kit.

It is no good designing a house for a relatively small, wall mounted combi boiler, then it all being a surprise when you find out you need to fit a DHW cylinder and a buffer tank.

[Ferdinand]

9 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I don't think the smaller homes, as a complete package, cost the developer any more.  They would just offer less for the land, or ask for more land.  They are supplying to a price point, not to a size point.

Not really the point I am making though.

If we transition from natural gas, to alternative heating systems, we need space to install the kit.

It is no good designing a house for a relatively small, wall mounted combi boiler, then it all being a surprise when you find out you need to fit a DHW cylinder and a buffer tank.

 

Developers benefit from land price / house price changes over the 10 years or so it takes from buying the land to selling the house.

 

In that period the average house price might have risen by 15-50%. 

[markc]

Massive development not far from me, mostly 4 bed detached, virtually no rear garden, front is just tarmac for parking two small cars and gap between houses is approx 300mm … effectively terraced. Where do you put a heat pump?

 

[IanR]

1 minute ago, markc said:

. Where do you put a heat pump?

 

In the long term these types of development are going to need a district heating solution.

 

Any amenity land that's been included in the development will have to get repurposed with commercial heat pumps.

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, markc said:

Where do you put a heat pump

Exactly the point I am making.

[billt]

I'm mystified why a new build home of 50 sq.m. needs a heat pump or cylinder.

 

It should be built with good enough insulation to have sufficiently low heat demand that electric resistance heaters will cope. Can't see the point of a heat pump with very low heat load. Like wise you can use instant water heaters and electric showers. At a guess the heat losses from a cylinder (which are quite high especially with the small cylinder needed in a small house) would make up for the use of direct electrical heating.

 

Anyway the grid will be zero carbon next year and electricity will be so cheap it won't need to be metered.

 

We own a flat which is about 50sq.m. It has an airing cupboard which must have had a cylinder at one time. The airing cupboard doesn't impinge much on the floor space. An ASHP could go on an outside wall if mandated. PV is an irrelevance in a small house, so I don't really see what the  problem is.

[joe90]

11 minutes ago, billt said:

next year and electricity will be so cheap it won't need to be metered.

Oh I do love an optimist (they been saying this for years).

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, billt said:

It should be built with good enough insulation to have sufficiently low heat demand that electric resistance heaters will cope. Can't see the point of a heat pump with very low heat load. Like wise you can use instant water heaters and electric showers. At a guess the heat losses from a cylinder (which are quite high especially with the small cylinder needed in a small house) would make up for the use of direct electrical heating.

You are first rather optomistic in assuming developer mass built houses are built to anything other than the minimum they can get away with in terms of insulation and air tightness.

 

But even then a heat pump will cut heating bills down to about 1/3 compared to resistance heating, so 1/3 of a small number is an even smaller number.

 

Once you have experienced showering from an unvented tank of hot water with a decent flow rate, you will never ever want to go back to using a direct resistance heating electric shower that will struggle to deliver 3 litres per minute, and should you ever want a bath, I would hate to think how long it would take to run that with an instant water heater.

[markc]

3 hours ago, billt said:

I'm mystified why a new build home of 50 sq.m. needs a heat pump or cylinder.

 

It should be built with good enough insulation to have sufficiently low heat demand that electric resistance heaters will cope. Can't see the point of a heat pump with very low heat load. Like wise you can use instant water heaters and electric showers. At a guess the heat losses from a cylinder (which are quite high especially with the small cylinder needed in a small house) would make up for the use of direct electrical heating.

 

Anyway the grid will be zero carbon next year and electricity will be so cheap it won't need to be metered.

 

We own a flat which is about 50sq.m. It has an airing cupboard which must have had a cylinder at one time. The airing cupboard doesn't impinge much on the floor space. An ASHP could go on an outside wall if mandated. PV is an irrelevance in a small house, so I don't really see what the  problem is.

I agree they should be well insulated, my daughter moved into a new build 4 years ago and it is terrible! It’s cold, costs a fortune to heat and you can hear the neighbours talking and their phones ringing.

just bought her a 60’s council house and it’s completely different, so much warmer.

and low carbon electricity is going to cost us a fortune ..get ready for net zero poverty

[SteamyTea]

13 minutes ago, markc said:

low carbon electricity is going to cost us a fortune

Why, apart from nuclear, which price wise is out of control, RE is the cheapest form of new generation.

Only the odd quirk that it has some 'green taxes' on it that were there to pay for the phase out coal, and pay for the 'eco' grants/subsidies, that the price between natural gas and electricity is so large.

If we put 2p/kWh onto domestic gas heating, and once the larger usage of gas in most homes is taken into account, there would not be a huge difference.

The idea that RE generation is expensive is a decade old now.  If we lowered our planning criteria, i.e. no new wind on land, then it would be even cheaper.

I drove up the A5 (TerryE country ish) today.  I saw a sign that said 'No Wind Turbines Here'.  It was so old that some trees had grown in front of it.

Edited November 6, 2021 by SteamyTea

[billt]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

You are first rather optomistic in assuming developer mass built houses are built to anything other than the minimum they can get away with in terms of insulation and air tightness.

 

But even then a heat pump will cut heating bills down to about 1/3 compared to resistance heating, so 1/3 of a small number is an even smaller number.

 

Once you have experienced showering from an unvented tank of hot water with a decent flow rate, you will never ever want to go back to using a direct resistance heating electric shower that will struggle to deliver 3 litres per minute, and should you ever want a bath, I would hate to think how long it would take to run that with an instant water heater.

 

I wasn''t actually making any assumptions about who was building these houses.

 

My point about not needing heat pumps is the same point that has been made on this forum in the past; if the heat demand is low the capital cost of a heat pump and all the other plumbing is not justified.

 

The 50 sq.m. flat we own was built in the 80s with 1980s levels of insulation. The heating demand is actually very low. It hasn't been heated since the beginning of October; the living room temperature is 14C at the moment, the lowest that it has dropped to was 12 on the 5th of November.

 

Sorry, I simply don't understand the desire to be blasted with high pressure water. Our water here is gravity fed with about a 2M head. The showers are entirely satisfactory and the baths fill up in a perfectly acceptable time. A mains fed 9-10kW electric shower should be perfectly adequate.

 

A 50sq.m. house is going to be a basic bottom of the market home, not a luxury home.

[Thedreamer]

59 minutes ago, billt said:

The 50 sq.m. flat we own was built in the 80s with 1980s levels of insulation. The heating demand is actually very low. It hasn't been heated since the beginning of October; the living room temperature is 14C at the moment, the lowest that it has dropped to was 12 on the 5th of November.

 

Is 14C the temperature when you are sitting in the living room? That seems very low. 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, billt said:

A mains fed 9-10kW electric shower should be perfectly adequate.

Only if no one else in the dwelling opens a tap / flushes a loo, and no appliances are using cold mains at the same time  Otherwise your huge electric shower will shut down and you;ll have to select its lowest setting and suffer a shower akin to me peeing faster-than. That rule applies to any and all electric instantaneous heaters, which are largely over marketing-hyped utterly useless bags of shit.

I will concede that if new builds receive a mandatory 3ph electricity supply, the 3ph Steibel Eltron 27 electric instant is an absolutely fantastic bit of kit. I'm seriously impressed by it. Its 1ph little brother is however completely pitiful on a good day in the peak of summer, and a complete waste of money and wall space in the depths of winter where it needs to dig deep to uplift colder incoming water temps to the same level.

1 hour ago, Thedreamer said:

Is 14C the temperature when you are sitting in the living room? That seems very low. 

You do have to consider the sanity of some folk writing here  

 

14oC "right now" = 9pm on a November night. Less gin, more tonic, eh? Probably renting @SteamyTea's conservatory and banished from making physical contact with the room stat ?