The horror situation of tender returns in current market!?

[Andehh]

Anyone else recently received quotes back or can relate? In the nightmare situation where tender returns have come back at 25% over original 'hope'- something we can make work by cleaning ourselves out & cutting back multiple areas, but still utter nightmare territory! Had 4 builders return on tender, all similar enough in their pricing - fixed price contract.

 

I just can't understand how I was so far off in hoping for around £375k all in. 

 

It is a 140sqm Bungalow extension (40sqm garage built with heating & fully insulated), very thorough renovation of existing Bungalow inc remodel interior & exterior, render, new tiles, new brick cladding etc. Quite a few luxuries in A/C, UFH throughout, aluminium windows & big sliding doors

 

Lot of these prices went up 5-10% when the Architects (full managed service) went through with a fine tooth comb & aligned them all like for like - currently working off a £450k (+ VAT) cost.....Value engineering is next on the list!

 

Asking builders to quote for full knock down & rebuild of existing 1970s bungalow to see if that makes sense vs the £100k tax bill...but for the 140sqm I am doubtful it will be value for money when it would be rebuilt very similar (but in block not timber framed)

 

This post is a little more then a rant/scream at the wind....but anyone else go through this horror realisation!? Any sage words it'll be worth it in the end..... ? ?

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Andehh

[Mr Punter]

There is a vast difference between the individual items.  Most differ by a factor of 2 and many far more.  They look similar for the main structure.  Maybe just get them to do the shell and roof to the extension and organise the rest as separate trades.

[epsilonGreedy]

Have you verified the overall viability of the design by cross checking how the market would value of the final result? A six bedroom bungalow with an odd proportion of bedroom to public room area is a bit of a niche.

 

I would follow @Mr Punterand get the shell up through a main builder or delay until market sanity returns.

[Moonshine]

Where about in the country is it?

 

I am working it out to be £3,200 per m2, ouch!

 

What prelims cost £95k from the third quote?

[saveasteading]

26 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

There is a vast difference between the individual items

Estimator's hat on.

It is a pain breaking down your own detailed costings to fit a simplified spreadsheet like this.

Different contractors will put sums into different boxes when summarising.

10 to 15% overhead and profit is generally not enough, but nobody wants to see more, so some will be 'lost' in the other figures: either spread through or plonked into a big and early item, or classed as prelims.

The provisional sums vary a lot too, so are clearly the contractors' tricky items, and may balance out some other items when allocated.

tbc and % without sums make this pretty useless too. 

heating 11k or 42k. not the same job.

windows 21k or 41k  not the same spec.

 

As Mr Punter suggests...simplify it if you have to start soon, and leave the innards.

Don't rule out any of these contractors yet. The cheapest may very well be very efficient, while the others use subbies a lot.

The dearest may be the only properly quoted price.

 

Very good luck,

Edited August 18, 2021 by saveasteading
slight addition.

[James Newport]

Been there. A quarter mil on a house that cost £350,000 and will only be worth £550,000 ish once done? Hmmm, that sounds appealing. 

 

I went the separate trades route, and we'll come in around £100,000

 

The caveats being

•  managed builder reckoned 6 months, but we're at 16. 
• Huge amounts of my time managing the whole process
• If someone cocks something up and it's down to me and them to resolve, rather than just telling the managed builder to sort it
• I know where all the mistakes are that we have to live with, and they bug me
• But I also know where all the mistakes aren't that I noticed and got them to fix

The craziest price differences we had were scaffolding (they reckoned £30k, when it cost £7k) and roof retiling (£30-40k, whereas it cost around £15k). 

 

 

 

[Carrerahill]

2 hours ago, Andehh said:

Anyone else recently received quotes back or can relate? In the nightmare situation where tender returns have come back at 25% over original 'hope'- something we can make work by cleaning ourselves out & cutting back multiple areas, but still utter nightmare territory! Had 4 builders return on tender, all similar enough in their pricing - fixed price contract.

 

I just can't understand how I was so far off in hoping for around £375k all in. 

 

It is a 140sqm Bungalow extension (40sqm garage built with heating & fully insulated), very thorough renovation of existing Bungalow inc remodel interior & exterior, render, new tiles, new brick cladding etc. Quite a few luxuries in A/C, UFH throughout, aluminium windows & big sliding doors

 

Lot of these prices went up 5-10% when the Architects (full managed service) went through with a fine tooth comb & aligned them all like for like - currently working off a £450k (+ VAT) cost.....Value engineering is next on the list!

 

Asking builders to quote for full knock down & rebuild of existing 1970s bungalow to see if that makes sense vs the £100k tax bill...but for the 140sqm I am doubtful it will be value for money when it would be rebuilt very similar (but in block not timber framed)

 

This post is a little more then a rant/scream at the wind....but anyone else go through this horror realisation!? Any sage words it'll be worth it in the end..... ? ?

 

Get the shell up and some services in, then re-price everything later on.

 

The prices will come down, or the building trade will just slow so dramatically that manufacturers will be forced to drop prices if they remain greedy.

 

 

[Bramco]

16 minutes ago, James Newport said:

The craziest price differences we had were scaffolding (they reckoned £30k, when it cost £7k) and roof retiling (£30-40k, whereas it cost around £15k). 

 

We had a cost plan done - maybe not the wisest choice of people to do that but...     The daftest numbers they came back with were for the ASHP, MVHR and Solar PV, barmy numbers.

 

I think the lesson we learned was that for electrics, plumbing, tiling, plastering, landscaping folks are in safe territory. As soon as it gets a bit beyond that they rely on sending out aspects to 'specialists' and they load up their quotes when things can be done much more economically.  ASHP and Solar are good examples, we all know that if you aren't after the RHI or FiT type subsidies, all you need is a good plumber and electrician and it's just connecting stuff up.

 

Simon

[nod]

Some friends of ours have recently completed there third self build First being the late 80s 

They received a quote from the builder who did the last one 12 years ago 

and three other quotes of around 450k 

There preferred builder came in at 550k

When they pointed this out he offered to knock 100 k off 

Builders are doubling up on everything 

Partly because of rising labour and materials costs 

and partly because they can 

[Temp]

On the radio yesterday a recruitment company owner was claiming wages were up 4-8% due to major shortage of workers. He thought it might continue to be a "employees market" for 10 years!

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

"employees market" for 10 years!

There is certainly a great shortage of skilled persons in the building trade.

A lot have gone back to their own countries, and many of these were the highest skilled or hardest working.

Very few youngsters being trained.

 

It may simply have to be that many of us cancel our projects as being completely un-affordable.

Presumably this will partly self-correct but may take years.

Otherwise, as above, project manage it yourself, with a number of trades instead of a general builder, a lot of diy and all the tidying up, and give it a few years.

It is not easy and a huge risk if you are not experienced.

 

 

A tip from the industry. My business was very specialist construction, (I mean in limiting the scope and maximising knowledge,  not in being high-tech.) we would often be half the price of other perfectly decent businesses who were not being greedy.

so I analysed it. Simplistically it was.

10% in design control, ie efficient to build

10% in cost control

10% in fees, hardly any outside design

10% in close and integrated management, so no wastage, and with problems resolved, rather than by buying a solution. (and don't spend the contingency)

10% by using small contractors without much overhead, and no chain of contractors each taking percentages.

 

Then doing your own PM you save our 20%. too

 

I'm not saying you can half these prices, as the materials have a cost, but it is feasible.

But if you have  a day job it is not so easy.

 

Your cost looks horrendously high, but we don't know the detail. Some retrofit can be very expensive eg UFH. perhaps prune some of that out.

 

 

[nod]

40 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

There is certainly a great shortage of skilled persons in the building trade.

A lot have gone back to their own countries, and many of these were the highest skilled or hardest working.

Very few youngsters being trained.

 

It may simply have to be that many of us cancel our projects as being completely un-affordable.

Presumably this will partly self-correct but may take years.

Otherwise, as above, project manage it yourself, with a number of trades instead of a general builder, a lot of diy and all the tidying up, and give it a few years.

It is not easy and a huge risk if you are not experienced.

 

 

A tip from the industry. My business was very specialist construction, (I mean in limiting the scope and maximising knowledge,  not in being high-tech.) we would often be half the price of other perfectly decent businesses who were not being greedy.

so I analysed it. Simplistically it was.

10% in design control, ie efficient to build

10% in cost control

10% in fees, hardly any outside design

10% in close and integrated management, so no wastage, and with problems resolved, rather than by buying a solution. (and don't spend the contingency)

10% by using small contractors without much overhead, and no chain of contractors each taking percentages.

 

Then doing your own PM you save our 20%. too

 

I'm not saying you can half these prices, as the materials have a cost, but it is feasible.

But if you have  a day job it is not so easy.

 

Your cost looks horrendously high, but we don't know the detail. Some retrofit can be very expensive eg UFH. perhaps prune some of that out.

 

 

It’s a bit of a myth that the Eastern Europeans are higher skilled than uk workers 

They tend to be a more versatile than UK workers But not as skilled at one particular aspect 

Most are earning three times what they would earn back home So have a get it while you can attitude 

Ive two two Ukrainian tapers that’s work for me full time Both like many are still here 

The government handouts are still crippling the building industry and are most certainly to blame for labour cost rises and partly to blame for the steep rise and shortage of materials 

[Moonshine]

2 minutes ago, nod said:

The government handouts are still crippling the building industry and are most certainly to blame for labour cost rises

 

even with furlough winding down, how do you think the end of furlough and pay ours will affect the industry at the end of Sept?

[Ferdinand]

To op:

 

One of our members wrote in some detail about how they did their cost reductions:

 

[nod]

31 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

even with furlough winding down, how do you think the end of furlough and pay ours will affect the industry at the end of Sept?

The problem is 

Certainly with lads that work for me 

Is that those who have taken the government cash (our Money )

Will need to show a 33% drop in there earnings for this year So they will carryon taking cash jobs Self builds extensions Till April There’s little that companies can do 

 
Ive been to plaster out a show sweet on a large site as a favor for a friend 

The company doing the dry lining and render have completed 6 very large homes and abandoned the job Siting labour availability problems 

They will not be paid for any of the work or materials 

 

Theres a lot of companies with cash flow problems also

I visited a TF site we are doing and the Brickies where knocking the edges off all the face work that they had done Because the Bricklaying contractor hadn’t paid them 

 

It sounds gloomy because it is 

But all this could have been avoided 

Our £815m2  build cost of two years ago doesn’t look achievable now 

I’ve budgeted £1000 m2 for our next build 

But material prices would have to come down 

 

Any builder quoting for your build on a fixed price Will load the price by at least 50% Or pull off part way through when he realizes he’s going to make a loss

 

In my business Gypsum K Rend and a couple of saw mills haven’t hit us with price rises because they know it would put us out of business as most of the jobs where priced two years or more ago 

 

I’m hoping things will start to get better in 2022 Let’s hope As while we are all keen self builders There comes a point where the end value is less than the build cost 

 

[Mr Punter]

Just before the Brexit vote we had a firm of bricklaying contractors and the vast majority of them were voting leave because they thought the Eastern Europeans were keeping wages down.  There were plenty of people and press at the time who were scathing and condescending towards them but it looks like it worked for them.

[nod]

33 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Just before the Brexit vote we had a firm of bricklaying contractors and the vast majority of them were voting leave because they thought the Eastern Europeans were keeping wages down.  There were plenty of people and press at the time who were scathing and condescending towards them but it looks like it worked for 

I think the amount of Eastern European builders that are on UK building sites is exaggerated I’ve seen few but not that many I think most are in the private sector 

Cash in hand

Wages in Poland and other EU countries have nearly caught up  due to Labour shortages out there 

Anyone that’s already here Including the Just Eat guys Are allowed to stay 

 

My Brother worked as a Bricklayer in Germany throughout the 80s Earning four or five times the UK  hourly wage

No tax either 
I rember him telling me about the strange hollow blocks that they filled with concrete 

can’t see them catching on here ?

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

Well, all of ours went. 

Our first eye-opener was employing 3 Polish metal workers to erect steel buildings, because we couldn't get quality in the SE.

They worked hard, came for the next instructions, and turned their hands to anything.

That was until one of the locals was heard telling the that they didn't have to work so hard, in fact they would become very unpopular unless they slowed down a lot.

 

Then used steel gangs from Iceland/ Germany and Hungary. they were not cheap (perhaps dearer at tender) , but they turned up and worked.

 

All gone. Thee is plenty work elsewhere and no brexit employment issues.

 

Maybe that is just a SE issue.

 

what is the working day in other areas?

8.00 to 8.20 turn up, tea and the sun

10.00 to 10.30 breakfast

1.00 to 1.30 lunch

4.00 home

 

Fridays home earlier of course.   Good job they are on a price, but it could be much lower.

 

or Hungarians: 7.30 start

10 to 10.20 breakfast, possibly staggered to make best use of machines

100 to 1.30 lunch

6.00 home, perhaps later in summer.

weekends working too if allowed by planners.

 

Winter less of course.

[saveasteading]

official UK statistics also show that around 150,000 Polish citizens have left the UK since the Brexit referendum.

 

Not all in construction of course.

[nod]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

official UK statistics also show that around 150,000 Polish citizens have left the UK since the Brexit referendum.

 

Not all in construction of course.

The majority of Polish are working in unskilled or semi skilled jobs in factories 

Or cash in hand building work 

 

A very small percentage of the 150 would be skilled building SITE workers 

Anyone that is already here doesn’t have to leave 

Just fill in a simple form 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

I have looked for national figures and found this in Construction News.

22 JAN 2021 

 

The number of European Union-born workers in the UK construction industry dropped by more than a quarter in 12 months. In the third quarter of 2020, there were 127,000 EU-born workers in the industry, down from 176,000 recorded in the same period in 2019.

 

49,000 gone out of, from what I can see, about a million total site workers in construction.

I think the total number then and now are a lot lower than is generally thought, but these figures will not include any 'invisibles'.

 

Almost a year from then, on and I cant see any more recent info.

 

Ours left, that was a subcontracting business with about 12 to 20 highly skilled workers. well paid and paying tax here. Not Polish.

The owner said it wasn't worth the hassle and bureaucracy when there was work elsewhere esp in Germany..

There are skilled companies and individuals in this field in the UK but few, and far between

Quality and work ethic is what will most be missed.

 

I have tried very hard to encourage youngsters into the industry, by helping at school careers days, but most kids with any interest in construction wanted to be architects and seemed to be studying  photography and, strangely, philosophy.

[markocosic]

The big London apartment building sites are very Eastern European. Poles went long ago. Romanian these days. 

 

Problem you never is that if there are 10 jobs and 9 people to do them then you're going to pay until somebody gives up. But they've all got money.

[Andehh]

Thanks very much all! More settled over things, but still feeling very very very very sorry for myself! ?

 

To add a bit or perspective, this is a 140sqm of extension AND full 140sqm of 1970s bungalow refurb. 80% re-arranged inside, new roof, rendered & brick cladding, new plumbing & electrics. Full knock down & rebuild is around £550-600k estimated by architect & builders.

 

The extension is coming in around £1900/sqm, and we have thrown everything at it. No shortage of toys (CAT6a everywhere, A/C in 4 rooms, dual sided wood burner, external heaters/lighting, UFH retrofit to bathrooms & throughout extension, 'wow factor' floating corner in kitchen with 10m of over sized sliding doors, aluminium windows....5 external hot taps ? ) - even the garage is fully insulated & heated.

 

This is our forever house - perfect garden, perfect location, perfect surroundings etc so we are factoring every desire & lesson learnt from previous properties. So much of the pricing just seems to be sheer amounts of work & wants....spooky that!!

 

The above combined with 4 children and jobs mean it is fully architect led & the ability to divide & conqueror/DIY much of the project is heavily reduced - hence everything.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

I am not sure if the figures include VAT?  It looks like the all-in costs will be about £160k for the alterations and £340k for the extension, so £1143/m2 and £2428/m2.  This seems doable but you will need to be very careful to make sure these costs are nailed down.

 

I don't think a 5% contingency will give enough headroom.  Prices are only going one way currently.

[AliG]

Unfortunately you have chosen an expensive way to build.

 

Single storey means all the foundation and roof costs for half the house.

 

Integral insulated garages cost almost as much to build as internal house space, but do to have anywhere near the value.

 

I can see some cost savings, but to a lot.

 

The obvious ones are-

 

1. Why are you heating the garage - Won't work, bad for the car and a waste of money.

2. As there is no door to the garage you could remove it from the insulated envelope and save a few thousand on insulation and use a cheaper door.

3. The enormous corner sliding doors. You are talking at least £10k there. Do you need them all? They will also add to the cost of building the walls. How is the roof held up in the corner? Another few thousand extra steelworks.

4. If you have gas already to the site save a few thousand by putting in a gas boiler. If you don't have gas ASHP is fair enough.

5. Is that a fire/chimney between the kitchen and lounge. We have two gas fires and in hindsightI would not have bothered. Cost a fortune in terms of pipework, flues etc and hardly ever used.

 

That could save you 15-20k.

 

After this, if you have a builder willing to work with you, you could get them to get actual quotes for the rood etc and see if the can fe worked down. However, if they had detailed tender documents they may have already done this.

 

What do houses cost in your area per square foot/metre? You are only getting around 100sq metres of extra floor space for a total spend of over £500k. You might be as well selling and buying a larger, newer place.