When will it end?

[ToughButterCup]

@Adsibob, there you have it: @gc100's response sums up my experience beautifully. 

I get the strong feeling from your posts that you are bringing hard won experience in a professional context into your house build planning. Perfectly understandable. And it's infuriating that the building sector operates so - apparently - casually and - actually - casually sometimes. Its also common to find building wolves hiding in sheeps clothing. One or two have flirted with BH in the past too.

 

34 minutes ago, gc100 said:

... You need to be constantly there and understand what they are doing - daily updates. ...

 

I bet if your customers had to be like that with you in your business, you wouldn't last long.  

Welcome to BuildHub reality. We need the support and (technically) the Community of Practice that BH is 

 

Community of Practice 

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, gc100 said:

There are too many unknowns for even the most experienced builders

That is a dreadful reason. If medical surgery was as reliable as building, not many of us would be around. When you start the journey that is education, you don't go into say an English lesson and spend 40 minutes doing PE. When you get on a train from London to Penzance, even if things go wrong, you won't end up in Glasgow, and being charged an extra 200 quid.

The building trade really needs to up its game and become professional rather than the bodge it and scarper mentality. The customers need to reinforce what is expected as well. 

If there is a scarcity of Labour and materials, then it is time to reassess the project, even if it is halfway through. People talk about contingency, but they usually just mean cash, it is really about salvaging when it all goes tits up. Used to be called Plan B.

 

If you are having trouble getting quotes, decent prices, that is economic theory telling you something, generally don't bother.

Edited June 29, 2021 by SteamyTea

[gc100]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

That is a dreadful reason. If medical surgery was as reliable as building, not many of us would be around. When you start the journey that is education, you don't go into say an English lesson and spend 40 minutes doing PE. When you get on a train from London to Penzance, even if things go wrong, you won't end up in Glasgow, and being charged an extra 200 quid.

The building trade really needs to up its game and become professional rather than the bodge it and scarper mentality.

 

Perhaps. There are plenty of professionals in the trade though - QS, Engineers, Architects, Project Managers, Electricians, Plumbers, etc. The issue really is most self build cannot afford to employ the necessary number of professionals to really get the job done on time. I'm sure if I could of had the money to draw up extensive detailed plans, had a QS do extensive cost analysis, a project manager to build a realistic plan, with buffers at critical joining points of trades, spend time agreeing timelines and contracts with all the different trades, full time managing and sourcing of materials , and full time managing of the trades it would all come in on time.

 

Pay peanuts , get monkeys springs to mind...

Edited June 29, 2021 by gc100

[Adsibob]

Everyone’s feedback is helpful/interesting, but I feel I need to clarify a few points:

 

1) I have not and do not wish to fall out with my builder. I have given him the benefit of the doubt on many points and met all my side of the bargain, paying all of his invoices on time and buying a lot of supplies and ensuring they are on site when he wanted them, to the extent that I went with a £3,500 more expensive window supply contract to ensure windows were installed by the time my builder wanted them installed.

 

2) I am not paying peanuts. The contract is for a lot of money, even for London standards. I am well paid in my job, but this project is still costing me about 4 times my household’s gross annual salary. (I am already mortgaged to the max with 32 years left to pay. I’m only in my 40s.) There were cheaper options available, but I stayed clear. The point is this is a massive financial commitment for us and I think our builder will be getting a v. good income out of this project. 

 

3) I have not scrimped on professional fees. So far, I have spent about £5k on an SE, £2k on a specialist surveyor to design certain bespoke parts of the build, and about £10k on architectural and project management fees. I’m also forking out money for CVC to design the MVHR. There are incredibly detailed construction drawings, plumbing plans, electrical schematics, build ups, etc. 

 

4) I think my biggest gripe with the builder is the lack of communication. We have at least one meeting a week, often two. I try to pop in at least a third time each week. I am doing the bulk of the project management, but the architect is helping me, so the architect also attends twice a week. Only today did we find out that a cause of delay has been the posi joists. The posi spec changed about 3 months ago (we were going to do only one floor with posis, but then decided to go with two on CVC’s recommendation). At that point, it would have been helpful to know that posis were in short supply or that making this change might delay us as maybe we could have stuck to my original instinct which was that posis only needed for first floor and not second floor. Posis due to be delivered a couple of weeks ago, not coming till next week - apparently. Still doesn’t  explain the extent of delays, but sh!t happens and I will accept it. It’s just rather stressful rushing, and at times paying extra, quite a lot extra, to get things the builder says he needs urgently only for the to sit on site for several weeks after arrival, sometimes months.

 

5) I am generally a good communicator, but I find it difficult to communicate with the builder as he gets quite defensive. I’ve resorted to prefacing everything I say with “I know this isn’t your fault,…” to try and get him to down his guard. 
 

6) I had a very good experience with another builder some years ago on a big project, albeit one significantly simpler and cheaper than this one. We are still in touch and I wanted him to do this job, but timings didn’t work out. He was actually cheaper. I found him incredibly easy to work with and very easy going with me, whilst able to run a tight ship via his excellent foreman. Nothing seemed to stress either of them out, and they were a pleasure to work with, so whilst I am not in the trade, I do think I have some experience (this is our third project).

 

7) Is anyone else starting to lose my patience with suppliers using Covid as an excuse? In 2022 will people still be using the pandemic as an excuse? What about 2023? At some point businesses need to adapt.

 

[Lesgrandepotato]

This I think comes down to the fact people like to deal with people. He’s not the enemy he’s a bloke trying to make his way in the world like you.

 

You need the tension to dissipate. So Friday chippy lunch, pop in and talk without an objective. Once you have a relationship you can flex it. But you need a seat at the table first. 

[ToughButterCup]

Welcome, @Adsibob to the norm in this sector. Nothing in your post above is new here. Your gripes are understandable, and almost universal.  A quick read of any post on BH with the word 'rant' in the headline will attest to that.

 

50 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

...

The point is this is a massive financial commitment for us and...

...

 

I would have thought (I'm almost sure) that very many of us here also have that sickening clunk in our stomachs.  We are all Domestic Clients and therefore at a significant disadvantage over Clients.

Established builders are  in the technical sense of the word an elite.

Acceptance in their Inns of Court, Dreaming Spires, Operating Theater, Cockpit is just as hard as entry to a profession.

Edited June 29, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[Adsibob]

3 minutes ago, Lesgrandepotato said:

This I think comes down to the fact people like to deal with people. He’s not the enemy he’s a bloke trying to make his way in the world like you.

 

You need the tension to dissipate. So Friday chippy lunch, pop in and talk without an objective. Once you have a relationship you can flex it. But you need a seat at the table first. 

That’sa good idea. Only issue is he is only there early mornings and towards the end of the day, and not every day. I could buy his men lunch, but there isn’t really any tension between me and them.

[Adrian Walker]

40 minutes ago, Lesgrandepotato said:

This I think comes down to the fact people like to deal with people. He’s not the enemy he’s a bloke trying to make his way in the world like you.

 

You need the tension to dissipate. So Friday chippy lunch, pop in and talk without an objective. Once you have a relationship you can flex it. But you need a seat at the table first. 

Well said

[Roundtuit]

1 hour ago, Lesgrandepotato said:

You need the tension to dissipate. So Friday chippy lunch, pop in and talk without an objective. Once you have a relationship you can flex it. But you need a seat at the table first. 

I appreciate the need to manage relationships, but surely paying the bill gets your seat at the table?

 

You don't have to be mates but staying friendly is likely to yield the best results.  Effective communication is key, and in my experience, much of the industry isn't very good at it, sometimes by choice, so you'll need to compensate.

 

For what it's worth, we encountered our fair share of be!!end$ during the build, and after a while, a month's delay didn't even count as a delay.  Just keep your patience, problem-solve on a daily basis, and look forward to moving in!

[gc100]

You can’t get angry/frustrated about delays - they unfortunately happen 95% of the time on a build it seems . As others have said you just have to be pragmatic and take each week as it comes and try to get all materials and other trades to site in good time if you are taking the role of project management . It IS stressful and we’ve all been/going through it with are life’s savings. 
It doesn’t last forever though, but things will go wrong and you just need to accept it unfortunately. I’m still don’t have sorted windows nearly a year after they where installed for example. 
 

[ToughButterCup]

Here you are: have a read . What you @Adsibob are experiencing is normal.

[SimonD]

@Adsibob in case it's any consolation, I came from a professional background. I've worked at a senior level in one of the world's largest professional services firms. I've also been responsible for project document management at one of the world's largest engineering consulancies, building everything from airports to pharmaceutical plants, oil refineries and oil platforms.

 

I used to think I was reasonably adept at running fairly complex programmes and projects...until I decided to self build... I found that the rules we think apply to the world of work and projects don't seem to penetrate the twilight zone of construction, an industry which is by far the most dysfunctional I've ever come across. No only this, it's plagued by some weird contradictory mix of last minute, just in time, and the never never.

 

One of my most bemusing experiences of this was when the crew turned up to install my temporary electric supply. The van turns up on time at 8am sharp. The crew come and look at the trench I've dug. Tell me it all looks fine. Then tell me they're going to have their tea and will be at it shortly. They then sit in the van for half an hour drinking tea and reading whatever red top is their flavour. Then they get changed and about an hour later kind of get to work... I won't go into the EWI ordered over a year ago last March and which is only now getting installed!

 

Take a deep breath.....and as both @gc100 and @ToughButterCup say, it seems to be the nature of the game.

 

* and yes, I know there are some good ones our there.

[ToughButterCup]

24 minutes ago, SimonD said:

...

I used to think I was reasonably adept at running fairly complex programmes and projects...until I decided to self build... I found that the rules we think apply to the world of work and projects don't seem to penetrate the twilight zone of construction, an industry which is by far the most dysfunctional I've ever come across. No only this, it's plagued by some weird contradictory mix of last minute, just in time, and the never never.

...

 

I think your post should be pinned. 

[Ralph]

19 minutes ago, SimonD said:

I used to think I was reasonably adept at running fairly complex programmes and projects...until I decided to self build... I found that the rules we think apply to the world of work and projects don't seem to penetrate the twilight zone of construction, an industry which is by far the most dysfunctional I've ever come across. No only this, it's plagued by some weird contradictory mix of last minute, just in time, and the never never.

I completely agree with this. We're working on a lessons Learned system for one of the largest OEMs in the automotive industry, Co-ordinating software dev across multiple time zones with all the competing requirements and legislation is a piece of cake compared to the last 6 months trying to get our house finished. It's rage inducing insanity. 

[patp]

This, as I struggle to coordinate plasterers, carpenters, brickies, electricians while wrestling with kitchen planning, having only a degree in life, is making me feel sooooo much better  Oh, and I forgot about dealing with the sale of my home of forty years

 

[SteamyTea]

Did I not say earlier that the building industry was total crap.  No wonder we can't get houses built at a reasonable price.

 

[Adsibob]

Just to update everyone on progress: 17 days after my last post and I'm scratching my head to try and work out what's been done in that time. The remaining slab has been poured. Drainage trenches have been dug up. Second floor of posis has gone in. They are almost ready to start tiling the roof at the back and the windows have gone in (though this last feat has nothing to do with my builder). So they are definitely making progress.

Trying to take a more relaxed approach as suggested by many on here, but it's difficult.

Happy Friday everyone.

[Adsibob]

Further update. Another 11 days have passed. You probably will have picked up that much of that time I have been stressing about this. So doors are in, I guess (!).

The first floor roof has been tiled beautifully and first floor walls have been rendered and painted. Scaffolding went up to do the loft conversion.

Apart from that, I'm not sure much has happened. There has been a lot of trench digging for the drainage, but I really can't see progress. I feel like they are never ending.

Builder discovered that UK Power Networks cable has a tear in the sheathing and needs replacing because some wire is exposed. He also thinks it's not long enough which makes little sense to me, so he is going to ask the UK PN guy if he can lengthen it when they replace it, hopefully tomorrow. Just found out my power supply isn't enough for my requirements, so we are upgrading to 100A, hopefully on 11 August when a different division of UKPN will attend to do that.

Still so much to do. 

 

 

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Just found out my power supply isn't enough for my requirements, so we are upgrading to 100A, hopefully on 11 August when a different division of UKPN will attend to do that.

Who told you that?  What is your present supply rated at and why do you think you need more?

[Adsibob]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Who told you that?  What is your present supply rated at and why do you think you need more?

I think my present supply is 60A. Today the builder said for an extended house I should “really upgrade to 100A”. I wasn’t sure, but we do want to have an electric car in the future, so presumably that, combined with all the mod cons might mean I need more than we have at the mo, although we are not presently planning on having an electric shower, so after the car, the highest use would be the induction hob and the oven I imagine. Not sure, really out of my depth, though the new house should also be much more efficient as we will have much more efficient LED lighting.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Adsibob

[ProDave]

In the extension you will still have 1 oven and 1 hob and 1 washing machine etc.  Heating load will increase and hot water load might increase if you have more people in the house, but I think in your case those are not electric.

 

So no I would not worry, I would stay at 60A which is 14kW plenty to run all your stuff.

[SimonD]

14 hours ago, Adsibob said:

the highest use would be the induction hob and the oven I imagine.

 

Do you know the size of the hob and oven? A high output induction hob can get you up to nearly 12kWand a double oven over 4kW. More usually it's around 7kW for the hob on a 32amp spur, but some even come with a 13amp plug.

 

Do you have a friendly sparky to get a second opinion?

 

 

[SteamyTea]

17 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Not sure, really out of my depth, though the new house should also be much more efficient as we will have much more efficient LED lighting.

If you swap a 60W light bulb for a 10W LED one, you are reducing the power draw to 16%, call it 20% to allow for naff transformers.

Now say you had 30 60W bulbs, that would be, if they are all on together, 1.8 kW, but the LED will be 0.3 kW a 1.5 kW difference, or about half the power a kettle draws.

Keep things in perspective.

2 hours ago, SimonD said:

A high output induction hob can get you up to nearly 12kW

If is a rare day you need anything like that sort of power, anywhere.  Unless you like burning everything.

I have never understood why people by high power hobs, the skill is in not burning your tea.

If you need to boil a large pan of water fast, use the kettle, they are better at boiling water.

[Adsibob]

9 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

If you need to boil a large pan of water fast, use the kettle, they are better at boiling water.

Our house will be kettle-free. Takes up too much worktop space. 

[ProDave]

7 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Our house will be kettle-free. Takes up too much worktop space. 

So draw a pan of water from your boiling water tap then.