Dan F Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 26/04/2021 at 12:43, Thorfun said: It's interesting that you mention powering independently rather than parasitically helps. I am just doing more reading on 1-wire and was interested to know the benefits of one over the other but I've yet to get that far in my reading. Expand I'm using all 3 wires, read that it helps with reliability. Also making sure i connect ground from end-to-end (this is easier if you make sure you buy a cable with drain wire). 3 hours ago, Thorfun said: I think I'll go for the approach of bringing a conduit near to a wall with back plates. those back plates could always be switches and Loxone seem to say that you can then use the other pairs of the CAT 7 cable for the switches. Expand You can connect behind light switches, but if light switch is 1m high that limits length in slab or makes your branches longer. I personally recommend a dedicated 1-wire bus that is not mixed with tree cabling. It means you can keep it as short as possible just going point-to-point where you have 1-wire sensors, can keep branches as short as possible, and also means that your tree cabling topology can be different and not a strict bus which can come in very handy. 3 hours ago, Thorfun said: so was thinking of running the probes to the location where the switch plates would eventually be. seemed quite a sensible idea. Expand Doing this is still a good idea, regardless of it you do/don't use dedicated 1-wire bus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 26/04/2021 at 16:13, Thorfun said: doubt I need that loop in the WC but I figured what the heck! Expand That's a very short loop compared to the others. I know you're running this all as one zone, but why not make the WC loop an extension of one of the shorter loops? And what about routing around your comms room so that it isn't heated (although if you plan on cooling the slab in summer, it might help there!) Re: the gym, I can't imagine working out in a well-insulated house. It's amazing how warm you get even just moving stuff around. I was in our bedroom yesterday installing some shelves and it was borderline unpleasant even though the room was probably only 21 or 22 degrees. I guess you can turn the heating off or down on that loop if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted April 26, 2021 Author Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 26/04/2021 at 16:40, jack said: Re: the gym, I can't imagine working out in a well-insulated house. It's amazing how warm you get even just moving stuff around. I was in our bedroom yesterday installing some shelves and it was borderline unpleasant even though the room was probably only 21 or 22 degrees. I guess you can turn the heating off or down on that loop if needed. Expand so, when it says 'Gym' what it really means is a golf studio. I'm definitely not a gym person but I do like to swing a golf club so the plan is to have a net setup so I can practice during the winter etc. your point is also valid for the music room as when the band rehearse in there it will also get a bit warm with the amps running etc. as such, I am tempted to zone the basement and pretty much just turn off all the rooms except the games room as the equipment/activities in the other rooms will heat them. Also, as previously mentioned, the pipe is about £500. even if I never use it that's a small amount to pay for peace of mind. On 26/04/2021 at 16:40, jack said: That's a very short loop compared to the others. I know you're running this all as one zone, but why not make the WC loop an extension of one of the shorter loops? Expand interesting. hadn't thought of this. will take a look (although not sure how to do it in LoopCAD as I've only been using the standard auto-layout feature!) and see if I can figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted April 26, 2021 Author Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 26/04/2021 at 16:40, jack said: And what about routing around your comms room so that it isn't heated (although if you plan on cooling the slab in summer, it might help there!) Expand I did think about this but the obvious route is under the stairs and as I'm not sure what the stairs will be or how they'll be fixed to the floor (if at all) I didn't want to take the risk of pipe penetration. there's an MVHR extract in the comms room anyway so that should help to remove most of any heat produced. but I'll definitely see if I can figure something out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 26/04/2021 at 17:01, Thorfun said: ... but I do like to swing a golf club so the plan is to have a net setup so I can practice during the winter etc. Expand Given your username, are you sure it's a golf club? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 26/04/2021 at 16:40, jack said: That's a very short loop compared to the others. I know you're running this all as one zone, but why not make the WC loop an extension of one of the shorter loops? And what about routing around your comms room so that it isn't heated (although if you plan on cooling the slab in summer, it might help there!) Re: the gym, I can't imagine working out in a well-insulated house. It's amazing how warm you get even just moving stuff around. I was in our bedroom yesterday installing some shelves and it was borderline unpleasant even though the room was probably only 21 or 22 degrees. I guess you can turn the heating off or down on that loop if needed. Expand I have a gym in basement. Running machine, rower and free weights. Used to use the running machine a lot until I transitioned to outside running. Was like Bikram Yoga but I figured it wouldn't do me any harm 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 On 26/04/2021 at 10:09, Thorfun said: just spoke to Wunda technical support and their probes have 2 wires and he said they're not proprietary and should work with other systems. they work with the Heatmiser systems that Wunda also supply so I see no reasons why they shouldn't work with Loxone. @Dan F I do notice that the Loxone ones have 3 wires though. do you know what the benefit of that would be? @Rob99? maybe this is something you would know about? Expand Not been logged on here this week so missed this earlier. The 1-wire probes with 3 wires (confusing that!!) have a separate power line. I'm not a 1-wire technical expert but my understanding is that having a separate power line rather than parasitic power is preferable. Not sure why but likely to be more reliable as doesn't require pull up resistor etc. Loxone's 1-wire extension has the 3 connections so no reason to use sensors with parasitic power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 On 26/04/2021 at 09:39, Nickfromwales said: Also, iirc, Wunda don’t do the uber low temp pump and blending set atm. Therefore, if you buy now, I doubt if that kit will cope with the intended application. Totally agree; pipes now, cap them off with self-amalgamating tape, not cap ends, and leave for now. No. Just a few 16mm elbows to daisy chain the loops one to the next, put cold mains on the first pipe, and a pressure gauge on the last one. Expand I have a Wunda system and the pump set had a manual blending valve whch wasn't particularly good and I found did vibrate and was noisy a lot of the time. Following recommendation from @Nickfromwales I now have an Ivar pump set and blending valve which is fantastic. Leaving the purchase of the manifold and pump set/blending valve until later on is definitely a good thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 On 25/04/2021 at 15:24, Bitpipe said: What you really need is a pipe de-coiler as UFH pipe is impossible to lay without one. Look to borrow or hire one. Expand I definitely advise one. I laid my first loop without one and it was a nightmare carrying the pipe coil and turning it over and making sure it didn't kink. One 60m loop took me a few hours. Bought a decoiler and similar sized loop took a third of the time and was so easy. I still have the decoiler if you're interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted May 1, 2021 Author Share Posted May 1, 2021 On 01/05/2021 at 17:31, Rob99 said: Loxone's 1-wire extension has the 3 connections so no reason to use sensors with parasitic power. Expand 5 x 3m 3wire 1-wire temp probes ordered from eBay and delivered ready for installation! On 01/05/2021 at 17:43, Rob99 said: Leaving the purchase of the manifold and pump set/blending valve until later on is definitely a good thing. Expand thanks. I've told Wunda I only want the pipe for now and they were ok with that. On 01/05/2021 at 17:51, Rob99 said: I still have the decoiler if you're interested. Expand thanks Rob but I've already ordered it. I could probably cancel it but it's done now and I'm on to the next thing to organise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 On 01/05/2021 at 17:55, Thorfun said: 5 x 3m 3wire 1-wire temp probes ordered from eBay and delivered ready for installation Expand You won't use these for a few months if you use the UFH pipe as conudit. If, for any reason, you are concreting them in then make sure you test them first and potentially install a backup incase of failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted May 1, 2021 Author Share Posted May 1, 2021 On 01/05/2021 at 18:36, Dan F said: You won't use these for a few months if you use the UFH pipe as conudit. If, for any reason, you are concreting them in then make sure you test them first and potentially install a backup incase of failure. Expand I am planning on using the conduit. but was going to put them in the conduit before the slab is poured to save doing it later. then I can just fit and forget until I'm ready to wire them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 On 26/04/2021 at 09:39, Nickfromwales said: Also, iirc, Wunda don’t do the uber low temp pump and blending set atm. Therefore, if you buy now, I doubt if that kit will cope with the intended application. Totally agree; pipes now, cap them off with self-amalgamating tape, not cap ends, and leave for now. No. Just a few 16mm elbows to daisy chain the loops one to the next, put cold mains on the first pipe, and a pressure gauge on the last one. Expand @Nickfromwales (or anyone else that can answer this!) I know this is an old thread but I am nearly finished with our UFH pipes in the basement and I am going to fill them with water and am looking to buy the 16mm elbows for our 16mm pipe from Wunda. but, am I being stupid, it looks like all the push-fit elbows at Screwfix are for 15mm pipe. like this https://www.screwfix.com/p/jg-speedfit-plastic-push-fit-equal-90-elbow-15mm/97179 is this what I want or are there really 16mm elbows that would be more suitable? obviously there are plumbers merchants near me and I could go in and ask but I'm not sure I want to be laughed at while also being sold a left-handed screw driver and a skirting board ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 On 05/02/2022 at 18:31, Thorfun said: @Nickfromwales (or anyone else that can answer this!) I know this is an old thread but I am nearly finished with our UFH pipes in the basement and I am going to fill them with water and am looking to buy the 16mm elbows for our 16mm pipe from Wunda. but, am I being stupid, it looks like all the push-fit elbows at Screwfix are for 15mm pipe. like this https://www.screwfix.com/p/jg-speedfit-plastic-push-fit-equal-90-elbow-15mm/97179 is this what I want or are there really 16mm elbows that would be more suitable? obviously there are plumbers merchants near me and I could go in and ask but I'm not sure I want to be laughed at while also being sold a left-handed screw driver and a skirting board ladder. Expand Just how many elbows do you want and for where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 On 05/02/2022 at 19:27, ProDave said: Just how many elbows do you want and for where? Expand I want to fill all the loops with water. so I was thinking of hose pipe in to the first pipe and then elbow to elbow across all the other pipes with a pressure gauge on the last pipe. I have 7 loops so that would be 12 elbows. once the screed has been poured and gone off they can be removed and the ufh pipes eventually fitted to a manifold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 On 05/02/2022 at 19:31, Thorfun said: I want to fill all the loops with water. so I was thinking of hose pipe in to the first pipe and then elbow to elbow across all the other pipes with a pressure gauge on the last pipe. I have 7 loops so that would be 12 elbows. once the screed has been poured and gone off they can be removed and the ufh pipes eventually fitted to a manifold. Expand JTM sell them too Carry on as you are, and this is what I did when I wanted to fill and test at slab level. I didn’t want to fit the manifold in that instance as I feared it getting damaged. If you think you can mitigate then buy the manifold now and fit it, saving the loss of the cost of the fittings 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 On 05/02/2022 at 20:55, Nickfromwales said: JTM sell them too Carry on as you are, and this is what I did when I wanted to fill and test at slab level. I didn’t want to fit the manifold in that instance as I feared it getting damaged. If you think you can mitigate then buy the manifold now and fit it, saving the loss of the cost of the fittings Expand Ahh….so 16mm fittings do exist! I’ll try my local plumbers merchants next week. im not ready for the manifold yet and I’m happy to take the hit on the fittings. Self-building is stressful enough without trying to rush too many things before you’re ready. I’m learning that a more “que sera sera” attitude is healthier but does lead to a slower build! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 On 05/02/2022 at 23:12, Thorfun said: Ahh….so 16mm fittings do exist! I’ll try my local plumbers merchants next week. im not ready for the manifold yet and I’m happy to take the hit on the fittings. Self-building is stressful enough without trying to rush too many things before you’re ready. I’m learning that a more “que sera sera” attitude is healthier but does lead to a slower build! Expand Less stressed is best 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 6, 2022 Author Share Posted February 6, 2022 On 05/02/2022 at 23:24, Nickfromwales said: Less stressed is best Expand yep. On 05/02/2022 at 20:55, Nickfromwales said: JTM sell them too Expand interestingly those 16mm fittings from JTM are bespoke: "JTM 16mm compression fittings manufacturer to BS & EU standard, The fittings is made up by hand of a 15mm compression fitting and a 16mm nut and insert. " So, are 15mm push-fit also suitable for this task? I'm confused as there don't seem to be a lot of 'native' 16mm elbows/fittings. I did find these (https://underfloorparts.co.uk/product/16-x-16mm-x-1-pr-elbow-pexal-multilayer-pipe-upel16m/) but they're stupidly expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 Some less expensive options.......... https://plumbing-gear.com/5-x-hepworth-hep2o-16mm-tees-hep20-plastic-pushfit-push-fit-tee-underfloor-762-p.asp https://theunderfloorheatingsite.co.uk/shop/water-under-floor-heating/accessories/couplings/pack-of-6-16mm-x-16mm-elbow-double-coupling-pex-al-pex-brass-compression-fitting/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAgP6PBhDmARIsAPWMq6l8SF7z1lNmqctzvq5c20vrEDCbmUguM0fQy1oov6w8hp1jv42Kj9saAr9eEALw_wcB https://www.screwfix.com/p/jg-speedfit-plastic-push-fit-equal-90-elbows-15mm-10-pack/57953 These say 15mm but the JG website specifies them as 16mm I'll try and find a spare bit of my UFH Pex pipe and see if it fits in the JG fitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 6, 2022 Author Share Posted February 6, 2022 On 06/02/2022 at 11:05, Rob99 said: Some less expensive options.......... https://plumbing-gear.com/5-x-hepworth-hep2o-16mm-tees-hep20-plastic-pushfit-push-fit-tee-underfloor-762-p.asp https://theunderfloorheatingsite.co.uk/shop/water-under-floor-heating/accessories/couplings/pack-of-6-16mm-x-16mm-elbow-double-coupling-pex-al-pex-brass-compression-fitting/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAgP6PBhDmARIsAPWMq6l8SF7z1lNmqctzvq5c20vrEDCbmUguM0fQy1oov6w8hp1jv42Kj9saAr9eEALw_wcB Expand thanks Rob. I think my Google search skills are a bit off at the moment! On 06/02/2022 at 11:05, Rob99 said: https://www.screwfix.com/p/jg-speedfit-plastic-push-fit-equal-90-elbows-15mm-10-pack/57953 These say 15mm but the JG website specifies them as 16mm I'll try and find a spare bit of my UFH Pex pipe and see if it fits in the JG fitting. Expand in that case I think these are the ones I'll use. it would be great if you could find some ufh pipe and see if they fit. if not, I might just buy them and return them if they don't fit! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 On 06/02/2022 at 12:35, Thorfun said: On 06/02/2022 at 11:05, Rob99 said: I'll try and find a spare bit of my UFH Pex pipe and see if it fits in the JG fitting. Expand in that case I think these are the ones I'll use. it would be great if you could find some ufh pipe and see if they fit. Expand No luck on the UFH pipe I'm afraid ☹️ Looked everywhere I can think of but don't seem to have kept any (very unusual for me!!) possibly as I only had small offcuts and couldn't see any use for them. Found loads of spare bits of the JG 15mm pipe but that's no help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Walker Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 The UFH pipes need to be less than 100mm down to work effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 JG definitely don’t fit 16mm PEX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 6, 2022 Author Share Posted February 6, 2022 On 06/02/2022 at 15:52, PeterW said: JG definitely don’t fit 16mm PEX Expand that's a shame. thanks for letting me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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