Concealed toilet cisterns: Grohe vs Geberit vs Tece

[Adsibob]

Prior to commencing my big refurb journey (more of a voyage really), I thought Geberit was the market leader in concealed cisterns. I had no evidence to base that on, it's just what I assumed. Chatting to a friend the other day who is a property developper, he told me to stay clear of Geberit because their design means that there is a greater risk of a mistake being made upon installation as they have a peculiar fitting at one end of the pipe that comes out below the cistern. Apparently, the same junction on the Grohe models is a traditional screw ring fitting which is idiot-proof as you just tighten it to fit it. He said he'd had a few of the Geberit models leak at that problematic fitting and advised going for Grohe cisterns, with any old company for the frame.

In the showroom I visited today I asked the salesperson what she thought, and she said there's no difference between the two companies, they are both "just above entry level products" and that she recommends Tece "because that is what Toto specify for their toilets and Toto are the market leaders". No idea if this is evidence based either.

 

Curious as to people's experience with any of these three companies' concealed cisterns. We already touched on this in the other thread on toilets I started, which had some very useful observations (not to mention the banter*), but I thought this merited its own thread.

*Thanks @Onoff, @ToughButterCup, @PeterW, @SimonD and even @pocster.

 

[nod]

While I’m not a plumber but I found it extremely easy to fit our four concealed Geberit systems 

They have been in use for over two years without any issues 

 

I will be using Geberit on our next builds 

Edited April 3, 2021 by nod

[wozza]

I fitted my first ever concealed cistern a few months ago in my guest WC.

 

It is a Grohe SL Rapid - it was easy to fit and works well, we are happy with it.

 

I bought it as a complete kit with frame, cistern, pan etc from a local showroom as it was a very good offer.

 

The only problem I had was trying to attach the pan - I held the pan whilst SWMBO turned the Allen key to tighten the bolts clockwise - whats wrong with that you may ask as clockwise is the correct direction to tighten - Not when looking from above so its actually anti clockwise ? - After some choice words we swapped and it all went smoothly

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by wozza

[Pocster]

Can’t say which is better ( if any )

2 x Geberit installed . The only thing I didn’t like were the support bolts wobble which wasn’t reassuring. Other than that both are still attached to the wall ! 

[Pocster]

8 hours ago, Adsibob said:

and even @pocster.

“ and even “ ! Wtf that meant to mean ? 

[ToughButterCup]

8 hours ago, Adsibob said:

....

Curious as to people's experience with any of these three companies' concealed cisterns

...

 

I'm,  by birth, biased. Anything vaguely german but  promoted in the UK gets my attention.

 

And in our sector it is hard to avoid German stuff. Even a proper Brit like @nod can't avoid Nolte or Geberit for example.  So there's good reason at least to consider it. 

 

It was the high quality support videos that tipped the balance for me.  Our plumber had never fitted a Geberit - knowing that,  I created a comprehensive Geberit Aqua Clean Tuma Classic playlist on YT and made sure he had access to an old Samsung tablet which was connected to our WiFi. Despite this he made one or two fitting errors. Easily identified.  Easily corrected. 

 Sweating the small stuff made the difference. 

[TerryE]

All our loos are wall-hung Gerberits.  Jan and I did the plumbing.  Brilliant. No problems so far after 3½ years.

Edited April 4, 2021 by TerryE

[pdf27]

9 hours ago, Adsibob said:

In the showroom I visited today I asked the salesperson what she thought, and she said there's no difference between the two companies, they are both "just above entry level products" and that she recommends Tece "because that is what Toto specify for their toilets and Toto are the market leaders". No idea if this is evidence based either.

Past a certain point, it's questionable whether you'll notice the difference. A problem every 20 years in a domestic setting is really good performance and really not worth paying extra to fix. The same level of reliability in a high-end hotel would mean failures every few weeks which would be utterly unacceptable.

[PeterW]

9 hours ago, Adsibob said:

they are both "just above entry level products" and that she recommends Tece "because that is what Toto specify for their toilets and Toto are the market leaders". No idea if this is evidence based either.

no it’s sales bull$h!t..!!! Toto are known for their hotel spec porcelain and their washlet/washlet+ brand, neither of which are available widely in the U.K. as they are predominantly a Japanese brand.  Market leader in £3k automated toilets..? Yep... market leader in bathroom porcelain worldwide ..?? Not a chance ..!

 

Tece frames are very clever in that they will mount into their own Tece Profil wall system to allow you to build and plumb a whole bathroom quite easily with hidden fixing and panels but it is eye watering stuff to buy, and not available in the U.K. as an official import. And Tece is red, Geberit is blue.. that’s about the sum total of the difference in the frames. 
 

9 hours ago, Adsibob said:

he told me to stay clear of Geberit because their design means that there is a greater risk of a mistake being made upon installation as they have a peculiar fitting at one end of the pipe that comes out below the cistern.

He’s talking wall mount cisterns here not the frame ones. The wall mounted cisterns allow you to alter the length of the flush pipe but it is just a push fit over the cistern spigot and not restrained in any way until you fit the brackets and it’s not just a push fit into the pan . It requires some careful measuring and cutting, and also that you don’t dislodge the two O-rings on the spigot. A good plumber wouldn’t have an issue with this, a monkey with a hacksaw on a day rate for a developer may do ... 

 

 

 

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

He’s talking wall mount cisterns here not the frame ones.

What’s the difference? I thought to mount on a wall, one needed a frame?

[PeterW]

28 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

What’s the difference? I thought to mount on a wall, one needed a frame?

No you can buy wall mount cisterns - you’re confusing them with wall mount pans. 

[Nickfromwales]

32 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

What’s the difference? I thought to mount on a wall, one needed a frame?

Concealed cistern + wall hung pan?

Concealed cistern + floor mounted pan? 
Which one fella? ?

[Adsibob]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Concealed cistern + wall hung pan?

Concealed cistern + floor mounted pan? 
Which one fella? ?

Well both actually. For most of our toilets I want them wall hung, but we don’t have the thickness in the wall to do this with one toilet, so for that the pan will be floor mounted, but if possible I’d still like to conceal the cistern. How much wall thickness do I need just to conceal the cistern?

[PeterW]

2 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

but we don’t have the thickness in the wall to do this with one toilet, so for that the pan will be floor mounted, but if possible I’d still like to conceal the cistern. How much wall thickness do I need just to conceal the cistern?

Same thickness as a frame so about 110mm. 

[Nickfromwales]

36 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

How much wall thickness do I need just to conceal the cistern?

You can get a 90mm odd one into a 100mm ( 4” ) stud wall.Link The thickness of the soil connection will rule the terminal thickness, but you can squeeze these in with a bit of engineering. Done a few with great success. 

The issue becomes one of sound ( noise ) transmission to the next room, and if BC are involved they may not be happy ( if they know about it ) so you’d probably need to double up on acoustic plasterboard on the reverse wall, plus stuff as much acoustic insulation in / around as possible, making sure you don’t cause any compromise with condensation from the uninsulated parts of the cistern. 
Grohe are bombproof, and the mention of moving parts / leaks is only relevant if you have a concealed cistern. The cistern in the frames is one-piece and never leaks, ever. All the components replace through the flush plate aperture so you can box / tile them in and not ever have to get to the frame etc again.

Been fitting Geberit for nearly 2 decades without a single failure.   

[Pocster]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Been fitting Geberit for nearly 2 decades without a single failure.   

I’m the same except it took nearly a decade to fit 2 

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, pocster said:

I’m the same except it took nearly a decade to fit 2 

Good going for a double glazing salesman ?

[Adsibob]

Alas, having started this post more than a month ago I still haven't managed to order a toilet frame and cistern or a flush plate. I seem to verge on having a nervous breakdown every time I try. In the Grohe range for example, how does one work out if the different parts are compatible with eachother? For example, are the following three bits compatible:

 

1. This frame and cistern: https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/grohe-rapid-slx-1-13m-support-frame-for-wall-hung-wc-39600000 
2. This flush plate: https://www.xtwostore.co.uk/grohe-arena-cosmopolitan-s-flush-plate-cool-sunrise-brushed-37624gn0.html
3. This inspection chamber, which presumably I need as the flush plate is a small one https://www.xtwostore.co.uk/grohe-small-maintenance-shaft-for-cover-plates.html

Will the inspection chamber increase the thickness of the installed unit, or can I still conceal all of this within a 18cm studd wall? I just find the diagram from Grohe incredibly unclear. I've pasted it below. It clearly says the max wall thickness is 230mm, but what's the minimum achievable with this unit? And the 10-70mm figure, is that an additional thickness to your wall of 10mm if you don't have an inspection chamber or 70mm if you don't? 

 

Thanks for your help in advance and sorry for being so dense about this!

 

 

 

[Vijay]

If you can't get the answers here, I'd recommend emailing Grohe. They have been brilliant in answering me within a few days. I actually got my Grohe frame delivered today

[Adsibob]

Thanks @Vijay that's such a good idea. I had a look at their website to try and find the answers but was none the wiser, do assumed they won't that "customer facing" but clearly I was wrong. What frame/cistern did you go for in the end?

[Vijay]

This one with a plan to fit it within a cupboard units https://www.grohe.co.uk/en_gb/rapid-sl-3-in-1-set-for-wc-0-82-m-installation-height-38773000.html

 

I can also recommend Manomano where I ordered it from. Ordered it Friday and delivered today for £145 - best price I could find

Edited May 17, 2021 by Vijay

[Adsibob]

I should clarify, in case I haven't already, that the nervous break down thing is because my eyes are allergic to chrome. They much prefer brushed brass, brushed gold or matt black. Whilst some of these options are available in the Grohe and Geberit flush plate ranges, they are astronomically expensive!!! Upwards of £200 for just the flush plate. Now I may be may be mad enough to have an allergy to chrome, but I'm not mad enough to pay £250 for a geberit flush plate in "fine brass".

 

I'm now considering Vitra, as they do some very nice flush plates for £20 in matt black. The frame comes with a 7 year guarantee, so hoping it is fine, but if anyone has any experience, good or bad, of Vitra toilet frames and cisterns, grateful if you could share.

 

And if someone like @pocster wants to make fun of my chrome allergy, that would be fine too. If I don't laugh about this soon, I will have to cry.

[Pocster]

10 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Whilst some of these options are available in the Grohe and Geberit flush plate ranges, they are astronomically expensive!!! Upwards of £200 for just the flush plate.

Yep I winced at that for a bog plate ! . Went with the “ chrome effect “ plastic plate . Feels cheap but still 45 quid ?

[ToughButterCup]

11 minutes ago, pocster said:

....Feels cheap but still 45 quid ?

 

The feedback on German sites about the flushplate is exactly the same, or even more critical. Its clear that both companies are taking the  peees. 

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

The feedback on German sites about the flushplate is exactly the same, or even more critical. Its clear that both companies are taking the  peees. 

Yep . When I bought the wc and frame it didn’t cross my mind to check the cost of the flush plates . I recon @Onoff could print them and make zillions !