canalsiderenovation Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 Well this is what my mum thought it was ? The heating went on today!!!! That 400 litre tank is enormous! I hope it pays off with the solar immersion. Hopefully someone is going to show us how the hell it all works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 I hope someone is going to insulate all the pipes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Not wanting to slag off your job. Why do people not paint the plantroom behind manifolds before they fit them. Baffles me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 I don't see thermal blending valves on those UFH manifolds. How are they regulating the water temperature? Are they relying on the ASHP to deliver water at the required temperature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 I did wonder that @ProDave unless they are blending further back at the input from the ASHP in the plant room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 31 minutes ago, ProDave said: I don't see thermal blending valves on those UFH manifolds. How are they regulating the water temperature? Are they relying on the ASHP to deliver water at the required temperature? yes they do exactly that. No need for blending with ASHP. Ours the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: yes they do exactly that. No need for blending with ASHP. Ours the same. Err yes there is ..! There is no safety mechanism to stop the ASHP putting 55c water into the slab without a blending valve. It’s a simple detail and shouldn’t be overlooked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 1 minute ago, PeterW said: Err yes there is ..! There is no safety mechanism to stop the ASHP putting 55c water into the slab without a blending valve. It’s a simple detail and shouldn’t be overlooked. There is actually. The heat exchanger is controlled by a valve (bit like a blending valve that doesn't blend) so the UFH loop water tank gets heated to the set temp then clicks off all the while being circulated through the loop. This is an ECODAN system and JOULE cylinder installed earlier this year by an MCS approved firm. Maybe you have got an old system ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 38 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: There is actually. The heat exchanger is controlled by a valve (bit like a blending valve that doesn't blend) so the UFH loop water tank gets heated to the set temp then clicks off all the while being circulated through the loop. This is an ECODAN system and JOULE cylinder installed earlier this year by an MCS approved firm. Maybe you have got an old system ? Yes it’s a 4 way shuttle valve on the refrigerant side matched to the temperature requested by the controller which uses a motorised blending valve on the water side to set the flow temperature. I’m aware of the method of how an ASHP works, I’ve had to work on a number of different types over the last few years including Sanyo, Danfoss and Mitsubishi. What you don’t have when you rely on the ASHP controlling water flow is any safety mechanism to stop floor temperature overshoot in the event of something such as a three way valve failure - if it goes to centre position for example then the water temperature for your cylinder (55°C) will hit your slab. There is no fail safe and it’s actually poor design as you should always have pairs of controls - you only need to look at a standard UVC for example to realise there are dual failure mechanisms to stop this. MCS is irrelevant here as they only certify and design to the point of the ASHP providing a DHW and Heating source. The entire premise of MCS is that the ASHP can supply the required heat load in kWh, so the hotter the feed, the less hours required. They are not concerned with the UFH design and there is a common misconception that just dumping water from an ASHP into UFH is “fine” as it will always be below 50°C. That’s an incorrect assumption and some floor coverings have an MST (maximum surface temperature) of less than 30°C - some LVT and engineered wood requires max 28°C MST so even setting your Ecodan to its lowest flow temperature (32°C IIRC from the latest FTC 6 on an Ecodan without checking) means you’re dumping warmer water than the floor requires. Add into the mix that that in low energy houses the heat requirement is so low that you want to be using blending valves to get to 27-28°C flows, and the whole “the ASHP will do it” argument falls apart. Hence the need for a blending valve to ensure that both the floor MST isn’t breached and the heat load is properly managed. This is why systems design is so important and you get failures in heating systems where ASHP are specified without anyone actually understanding what is on the end of the pipe coming out of the zone valve ... and all for the sake of a £50 valve. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 you can use that argument if the blending valve seized open at max temp which is the same analogy as both the ASHP, controller, 3 way and the circ pump all failing at the same time. Fitted and warrantied by ECODAN approved installer so if its ok for the manufacturer its ok for me. I agree a DIY solution can choose multiple failsafe's should you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canalsiderenovation Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: Not wanting to slag off your job. Why do people not paint the plantroom behind manifolds before they fit them. Baffles me. It should have been done last weekend with the half of the house that was sprayed but the room wasn't finished plastered due to delays (Covid related). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canalsiderenovation Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 3 hours ago, SteamyTea said: I hope someone is going to insulate all the pipes. What should be used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: Not wanting to slag off your job. Why do people not paint the plantroom behind manifolds before they fit them. Baffles me. I didn't want to be the one to point hat out.....and those pencil marks for the pipe runs would drive me insane! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymmm Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 8 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said: What should be used? Kingspan Kooltherm or similar. I have a setup similar to yours with no blending valve too. Zone thermostats should be set to protect the floor max temp too. What flow temp are you running from the heat pump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canalsiderenovation Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, Onoff said: I didn't want to be the one to point hat out.....and those pencil marks for the pipe runs would drive me insane! ? I know, paint sprayer is coming again this weekend but I suspect there isn't much he can do in there which is annoying but I'm just thankful now we haven't got anyone off now isolating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canalsiderenovation Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 Just now, Jymmm said: Kingspan Kooltherm or similar. I have a setup similar to yours with no blending valve too. Zone thermostats should be set to protect the floor max temp too. What flow temp are you running from the heat pump? No idea we aren't on site. It only got turned on yesterday. I know we had Kingspan in the walls do you mean it should also be elsewhere.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymmm Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 It's pipe insulation. Insulate all that pipework inside & out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canalsiderenovation Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 1 minute ago, Jymmm said: It's pipe insulation. Insulate all that pipework inside & out. Oh those foam pipe things that look like swimming pool noodles you wrap the pipes in. I get it now.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 25 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said: What should be used? https://www.pipelagging.com/ Something for everyone there. Hot and cold pipes should be lagged. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 55 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: Fitted and warrantied by ECODAN approved installer so if its ok for the manufacturer its ok for me. Good luck. You’ll find on the warranty that “consequential damage and loss is excluded” so you have no chance of ever recovering the cost of damage to a floor covering in the event of failure. So I’ll continue to specify blending valves if it’s ok with you, and ensure that the whole heating systems are specified with the correct controls, and leave the MCS guy to spec his bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 (edited) All of us have a distillery. Its called the gut. Thats why its impossible to have a zero blood / alcohol level. Edited November 26, 2020 by ToughButterCup 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 32 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: All of us have a distillery. Its called the gut https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b06tr5tf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taff Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 This is our manifold installed for upstairs in a small cupboard there is also one for downstairs, does this look right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taff Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Just now, Taff said: This is our manifold installed for upstairs in a small cupboard there is also one for downstairs, does this look right? Dont know why there is a red identifying tape on a cold though ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 it's not cold, the blue handle is the wrong colour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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