Pros and Cons of PH

[Mako]

23 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Seriously... PIR does not absorb water - it is what is also used for floatation in boats and canoes. Yes, under the correct conditions it will burn, but as I said it needs to be very hot and at that point and more crucially where it is in the “sandwich” of a house, you have bigger issues ..!!

 

Off gassing of materials is an issue not just with  PIR. MDF and other engineered woods can contain formaldehyde, paints have varying levels of VOCs, and you will struggle to find anything other than straw, sheep’s wool, mud and raw timber that don’t have some sort of chemical emissions. Given where PIR is normally used, it is encased in concrete or blockwork, or inside roof structures where the emissions can escape to the outside air, there is very little issue with this in modern buildings. 

In that case I don’t know what insulation I had from Celotex that have got soaked through when left outside, it was foiled on both sides.

 

in terms of Off gassing, you can get PiR boards with plasterboard bonded to it, located internally in the rooms.

also I read somewhere that this off gassing causes PIR to reduce performance as a result of Off gassing. takes about a decade to reach performance 

Of standard white EPS.  What are your thoughts on that?

you mentioned raw material, I don’t believe there is a formaldehyde in woodcrete products like Durisol, Isotex or Velox. 
Also if you have solid concrete structure and insulation from the outside, say XPS you don’t have to worry about those things.

osb, MdF laminated woods you don’t need in your house, you van get 0 VOC paints etc, so you can minimise that part.

modern buildings should not use such materials that carry health risks, especially as we know about them

 

[SteamyTea]

5 hours ago, Mako said:

modern buildings should not use such materials that carry health risks, especially as we know about them

 

They are bellow set standards if used correctly, and anyway, it is just shifting the problem.  Concrete manufacture has health risks for some people that work in the industry.

https://www.haspod.com/blog/health/concrete-cement-dust-health-hazards

Wood dust is pretty nasty as well if not controlled.

 

5 hours ago, Mako said:

In that case I don’t know what insulation I had from Celotex that have got soaked through when left outside, it was foiled on both sides.

What were the before and after mass differences?

 

Seems odd that with water being about the best material to store energy in, people dislike a bit of moisture in insulation.

[SteamyTea]

Right, as I am an early riser, and am waiting for my 92 year old mother to get up (oh how things have changed in 50 year), I thought I would do some 'trivial' calculations on the difference between concrete and wood.  I used the following thermal properties.

Concrete Density 2700 kg/m³, SHC 0.88 kJ/kg, Thermal Conductivity 1 W/(mK)

Wood Density 600 kg/m³, SHC 1.85 kJ/kj, Thermal Conductivity 0.147 W/(mK)

 

For a 1K (or °C in Roman Catholic) a 1m by 1m by 0.1m slab of concrete will store 238 kJ (0.07 kWh).

For a 1K (or °C in Roman Catholic) a 1m by 1m by 0.1m slab of wood will store 111 kJ (0.03 kWh).

 

The time to gain, or loose, all that energy, (but radiating/conducting from all sides) will be

Concrete 6.6 hours

Wood 21 hours

 

That is a 3 fold difference in time, so reducing the wood to 0.0314 m (oh a pi number, don't read anything into that) the time constant will be the same.

 

Mineral wool for the trivial case, would have a time of nearly 3500 hours.  This is why we use insulation, it stops the energy flowing (Q).

 

(as usual, I may have made an error, and this is for 'trivial' cases i.e. a simple slab with a constant Q, no other inputs, and energy can leave all sides of the slab, the ratio of energy loss/gain is treated as linear, when in truth it follows Newton's Law of Cooling)

 

 

[the_r_sole]

This is a weird thread, guy comes on asking for advice and opinions but then discounts everything that anyone says because he's only looking for confirmation that his way is the best way.

Timber frame has been around for years and years, in wet/humid climates you will notice that the number of Timber frame houses built in those climates over the last 50-100 years compared to concrete structures is very different. 

Just because something can be done badly doesn't mean it has to be done badly...

[Mako]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

They are bellow set standards if used correctly, and anyway, it is just shifting the problem.  Concrete manufacture has health risks for some people that work in the industry.

https://www.haspod.com/blog/health/concrete-cement-dust-health-hazards

Wood dust is pretty nasty as well if not controlled.

 

What were the before and after mass differences?

 

Seems odd that with water being about the best material to store energy in, people dislike a bit of moisture in insulation.

Water in insulation defeats the object. Water has a good heat transfer rate, point of insulation is to slow it down.

its better having no insulation versus wet insulation.

[Mako]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Right, as I am an early riser, and am waiting for my 92 year old mother to get up (oh how things have changed in 50 year), I thought I would do some 'trivial' calculations on the difference between concrete and wood.  I used the following thermal properties.

Concrete Density 2700 kg/m³, SHC 0.88 kJ/kg, Thermal Conductivity 1 W/(mK)

Wood Density 600 kg/m³, SHC 1.85 kJ/kj, Thermal Conductivity 0.147 W/(mK)

 

For a 1K (or °C in Roman Catholic) a 1m by 1m by 0.1m slab of concrete will store 238 kJ (0.07 kWh).

For a 1K (or °C in Roman Catholic) a 1m by 1m by 0.1m slab of wood will store 111 kJ (0.03 kWh).

 

The time to gain, or loose, all that energy, (but radiating/conducting from all sides) will be

Concrete 6.6 hours

Wood 21 hours

 

That is a 3 fold difference in time, so reducing the wood to 0.0314 m (oh a pi number, don't read anything into that) the time constant will be the same.

 

Mineral wool for the trivial case, would have a time of nearly 3500 hours.  This is why we use insulation, it stops the energy flowing (Q).

 

(as usual, I may have made an error, and this is for 'trivial' cases i.e. a simple slab with a constant Q, no other inputs, and energy can leave all sides of the slab, the ratio of energy loss/gain is treated as linear, when in truth it follows Newton's Law of Cooling)

 

 

Interesting, would you be able to calculate how much external energy is needed to increase temperature of concrete 1m x 1m x 0.15 to 25C

originally heated to 21C, so 4C difference? Solid concrete face wall insulated from the outside. Is that possible?

[Bitpipe]

On 12/09/2020 at 23:44, Mako said:

Thank you for all the info, basement it is a small plot on a fairly sandy soils, hence there is that potential.

what system would you recommend for basement construction?

im afraid we are the townies moving out ?

would like to build and stay for at least 10years.

trying to build something that has low running costs, does not over heat, sound proofing is important due to road traffic noise.

and can be rendered and cladded.

thank you

 

 

We built a passive basement and house.

 

Basement is cast in situ concrete (300mm thick) using the Sika waterproofing system (water bars, admix & plugs) - it is inspected on site by a Sika rep and once approved comes with 25 year warranty. We chose this method over ICF since we're entirely reliant on this single waterproofing system and wanted to see the quality of the pour for each section. This is one of the few downsides of ICF, you have to trust the quality of the pour as you can't see it. As the water table sits at 6m below ground level and the basement is 3m below ground, we did not see the need for external membrane (which needs perfect application) or internal membrane (assumes a leaky wall and needs sump + pump + backups etc).

 

Basement sits on a 300mm thick slab of EPS 200 which extends beyond the slab and there are vertical walls of 200mm EPS 70 applied to the exterior of the basement walls. We used insulated MEA GRP light wells (simple window holes left in structure) and have an external door to a concrete staircase to ground level for emergency exit and to meet fire regs (alternative is sprinkler system). Basement is the full footprint of structure above and acts as the house foundation.

 

Land drain at basement perimeter to soakaway and the 1m working space was backfilled with clean stone which acts like a giant French drain around the property.

 

The house is a MBC passive twin wall timber frame  - the inner frame is load bearing and sits on the edge of the concrete wall, the basement vertical insulation spans the twin wall gap and the exterior wall leaf sits on this. When the system has the insulation blown into it, there is an uninterrupted insulated layer that wraps around the house. Basement is inherently airtight as concrete and there is an airtight fabric taped to inside basement wall, up over GF and to inside wall of frame. GF is pozi joists over a steel web that sits in precast pockets in the basement wall. Essentially we mimicked the MBC foundation detail where the frame interfaces the basement walls. 

 

Our design was 'open box' by choice but no reason you couldn't do a 'sealed box' and have a slab at ground level  - just need some thought on your heating strategy as in a normal passive slab you put the UFH pipes in the slab vs on top in screed. That would work in a basement GF slab also, you'd loose a bit of heat to the basement walls but doubt it would make a big difference. TBH, a passive standard house needs so little heat injection that you barely use the heating at all. Many here use the slab to cool the house in summer (needs ASHP) so that may be a consideration also.

 

UFH on GF only, wet system in spreader plates under floor deck. No heating in basement or upper floors aside from bathroom towel rads and electric UFH under the tiles. UFH comes on for 2-3 months max over winter. Gas boiler used for that and DHW, solar PV on east roof with a diverter to top up UVC tank with immersion heaters before exporting.

 

Big sliders downstairs, every window is triple glazed so house is super quiet. External motorised shutters on east aspect (street side) + east & south Velux which greatly reduces daytime solar gain, increases privacy and removes need for curtains. West side has curtains in bedrooms and gauzy drapes in living/dining room. We do get a bit of overheating in summer, later in the day, usually because we're not that disciplined keeping the doors closed during summer. MVHR obviously. 

 

MBC frame can support a render system (battens, render board & render) or practically any other finish - timber cladding, brick etc.

 

As mentioned in other posts, basement cost variable is your ground conditions followed by your site access etc. You only really know what conditions you have following a ground investigation report - this is usually a combination of desk survey (to see what is expected to be there based on historical data),  dynamic probing to 10m (measuring ground resistance) and some core samples. Gas and ground water monitoring is often required too.

 

The SE should spec the investigation to ensure they get the data points they need and will then interpret the data to see what design and build method is required - i.e. sheet pile retaining walls if the soil is too soft to self support during construction etc. You then get a design which will include the bar schedules etc and shop it around local groundworkers to get a quote. most will sub out the concrete works to a specialised crew but will take care of the excavation and infill themselves. You can include other groundworks, site prep, services etc as part of the same package.

 

Hope all of this helps.

[Mr Punter]

@Bitpipe who did your structural warranty? I have found that lots of providers do not like waterproof concrete alone and go on to ask for drained cavity, which sort of defeats the object.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Mako said:

would you be able to calculate how much external energy is needed to increase temperature of concrete 1m x 1m x 0.15 to 25C

Yes, but it is much better to learn it yourself.

All you need is the material properties. The Conductivity, the SHC, the density and an hour on Google.

But having said that, like cars, people will not be convinced as we know lightweight is hopeless.

Keep adding mass, hang the extra energy needed and eventually you will have a cold cave.

[Bitpipe]

31 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

@Bitpipe who did your structural warranty? I have found that lots of providers do not like waterproof concrete alone and go on to ask for drained cavity, which sort of defeats the object.

 

ARC did it, they were happy with the single method as it was warrantied itself. The underlying insurer went bust but the policy was covered by another business so still in place. TBH - I only took out the whole building warranty to make it mortgageable and sellable, I would never expect to claim on it or for them to ever pay out given what I've heard. 

 

As you say, a drained cavity is a pointless expense if you use WPC, external would make more sense for belt and braces but that itself is no guarantee as it's only as good as its application and needs to be protected during backfill to avoid puncture by stones etc. 

[Mako]

10 hours ago, the_r_sole said:

This is a weird thread, guy comes on asking for advice and opinions but then discounts everything that anyone says because he's only looking for confirmation that his way is the best way.

Timber frame has been around for years and years, in wet/humid climates you will notice that the number of Timber frame houses built in those climates over the last 50-100 years compared to concrete structures is very different. 

Just because something can be done badly doesn't mean it has to be done badly...

I’m trying to understand why, are we all building Timberframe if we all can see the problems.

Is it because of price? Easy and familiar methods of construction? I’m not saying concrete, but why Timberframe?
I want to build a house that works, I was recommended to join in here for help, and than advised to do my own research,

im just confirming the knowledge, by no means I’m trying to be rude, sorry if it comes across like that.

There is no consistent information out there, hence it raised a lot of questions.

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, Mako said:

I want to build a house that works, I was recommended to join in here for help, and than advised to do my own research,

im just confirming the knowledge, by no means I’m trying to be rude, sorry if it comes across like that.

There is no consistent information out there, hence it raised a lot of questions.

Keep asking them  Some on here are a little less patient than others that's all........hoo-man nature etc etc. Panic yea not  Barks are a lot worse than the bites.

[Mako]

8 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

 

We built a passive basement and house.

 

Basement is cast in situ concrete (300mm thick) using the Sika waterproofing system (water bars, admix & plugs) - it is inspected on site by a Sika rep and once approved comes with 25 year warranty. We chose this method over ICF since we're entirely reliant on this single waterproofing system and wanted to see the quality of the pour for each section. This is one of the few downsides of ICF, you have to trust the quality of the pour as you can't see it. As the water table sits at 6m below ground level and the basement is 3m below ground, we did not see the need for external membrane (which needs perfect application) or internal membrane (assumes a leaky wall and needs sump + pump + backups etc).

 

Basement sits on a 300mm thick slab of EPS 200 which extends beyond the slab and there are vertical walls of 200mm EPS 70 applied to the exterior of the basement walls. We used insulated MEA GRP light wells (simple window holes left in structure) and have an external door to a concrete staircase to ground level for emergency exit and to meet fire regs (alternative is sprinkler system). Basement is the full footprint of structure above and acts as the house foundation.

 

Land drain at basement perimeter to soakaway and the 1m working space was backfilled with clean stone which acts like a giant French drain around the property.

 

The house is a MBC passive twin wall timber frame  - the inner frame is load bearing and sits on the edge of the concrete wall, the basement vertical insulation spans the twin wall gap and the exterior wall leaf sits on this. When the system has the insulation blown into it, there is an uninterrupted insulated layer that wraps around the house. Basement is inherently airtight as concrete and there is an airtight fabric taped to inside basement wall, up over GF and to inside wall of frame. GF is pozi joists over a steel web that sits in precast pockets in the basement wall. Essentially we mimicked the MBC foundation detail where the frame interfaces the basement walls. 

 

Our design was 'open box' by choice but no reason you couldn't do a 'sealed box' and have a slab at ground level  - just need some thought on your heating strategy as in a normal passive slab you put the UFH pipes in the slab vs on top in screed. That would work in a basement GF slab also, you'd loose a bit of heat to the basement walls but doubt it would make a big difference. TBH, a passive standard house needs so little heat injection that you barely use the heating at all. Many here use the slab to cool the house in summer (needs ASHP) so that may be a consideration also.

 

UFH on GF only, wet system in spreader plates under floor deck. No heating in basement or upper floors aside from bathroom towel rads and electric UFH under the tiles. UFH comes on for 2-3 months max over winter. Gas boiler used for that and DHW, solar PV on east roof with a diverter to top up UVC tank with immersion heaters before exporting.

 

Big sliders downstairs, every window is triple glazed so house is super quiet. External motorised shutters on east aspect (street side) + east & south Velux which greatly reduces daytime solar gain, increases privacy and removes need for curtains. West side has curtains in bedrooms and gauzy drapes in living/dining room. We do get a bit of overheating in summer, later in the day, usually because we're not that disciplined keeping the doors closed during summer. MVHR obviously. 

 

MBC frame can support a render system (battens, render board & render) or practically any other finish - timber cladding, brick etc.

 

As mentioned in other posts, basement cost variable is your ground conditions followed by your site access etc. You only really know what conditions you have following a ground investigation report - this is usually a combination of desk survey (to see what is expected to be there based on historical data),  dynamic probing to 10m (measuring ground resistance) and some core samples. Gas and ground water monitoring is often required too.

 

The SE should spec the investigation to ensure they get the data points they need and will then interpret the data to see what design and build method is required - i.e. sheet pile retaining walls if the soil is too soft to self support during construction etc. You then get a design which will include the bar schedules etc and shop it around local groundworkers to get a quote. most will sub out the concrete works to a specialised crew but will take care of the excavation and infill themselves. You can include other groundworks, site prep, services etc as part of the same package.

 

Hope all of this helps.

Thank you really appreciate your input, so you combined the concrete in the basement and timber frame on top.

Could you send a cross section of the Timberframe wall please. Not sure I seen twin wall yet.

[the_r_sole]

4 minutes ago, Mako said:

I’m trying to understand why, are we all building Timberframe if we all can see the problems.

Is it because of price? Easy and familiar methods of construction? I’m not saying concrete, but why Timberframe?
I want to build a house that works, I was recommended to join in here for help, and than advised to do my own research,

im just confirming the knowledge, by no means I’m trying to be rude, sorry if it comes across like that.

There is no consistent information out there, hence it raised a lot of questions.

 

 

It comes across as confirmation bias tbh

Building houses is full of compromise - there are very few people who have the budget, site and knowledge to the deliver the "perfect" house. 

It seems you are absolutely determined to discount timber frame even when presented with the arguments, which is fine, but it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater... 

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, Mako said:

I’m trying to understand why, are we all building Timberframe if we all can see the problems.

We aren’t ..? Lots of different methods on here - from traditional brick and block to durisol and ICF, not just timber frame. 
 

The forum is full of different methods and preferences - and budgets !! So if you start on the basics you will be able to build up your own opinion of what is right and wrong for you. 
 

 

[Mako]

8 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Keep asking them  Some on here are a little less patient than others that's all........hoo-man nature etc etc. Panic yea not  Barks are a lot worse than the bites.

Thank you, I’m trying, gets frustrating at times, to sieve through all the contradicting information ain’t easy.

I wish there was a guide here, similar to cars you buy Merc and you pay over the nose but you will appreciate quality, or buy Tesla and it will give you low running costs, or Buy Dacia it will get you from A to B but not in style and it might break few times before you get there.

Not easy

is there a tread where guys talk about calculating/modelling?  Is there this kind of knowledge between members?

[Mako]

10 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

It comes across as confirmation bias tbh

Building houses is full of compromise - there are very few people who have the budget, site and knowledge to the deliver the "perfect" house. 

It seems you are absolutely determined to discount timber frame even when presented with the arguments, which is fine, but it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater... 

Thanks, I live in a Timberframe house currently, just asked another member to give more info on Twinwall, not come across it yet.

But timber frame house I live in, friends who build few, what I seen and read, constant movement, every spring and autumn, 

Its getting too much. I said never again, but I’m still considering.

also price, so far it seems timber frame is not the cheapest way to build, but in terms of performance, behaviour I’m yet to find a reason why people doit? Is it lack of knowledge or laziness to find better ways? 
what is your view on Timberframe or what system would you use and why?

[ProDave]

26 minutes ago, Mako said:

Thanks, I live in a Timberframe house currently, just asked another member to give more info on Twinwall, not come across it yet.

But timber frame house I live in, friends who build few, what I seen and read, constant movement, every spring and autumn, 

Its getting too much. I said never again, but I’m still considering.

also price, so far it seems timber frame is not the cheapest way to build, but in terms of performance, behaviour I’m yet to find a reason why people doit? Is it lack of knowledge or laziness to find better ways? 
what is your view on Timberframe or what system would you use and why?

I have a TF house.  It does not move, creak or in any way feel flimsy.

 

I chose this as I wanted every part of my wall make up to be insulation. So Insulated timber frame with external insulation and render.  Very low energy house.

[SteamyTea]

44 minutes ago, Mako said:

is there a tread where guys talk about calculating/modelling?  Is there this kind of knowledge between members?

Nothing dedicated to modelling, there may be some interesting stuff in Boffins Corner.

No secret knowledge between members.  The ones of us that are interested/trained in it tend to give our tuppence worth.

It is often hard to trust models, especially ones that are hard to verify against real world conditions, all models are wrong, but some models are useful.

The man thing is to stick to basic engineering principles and physics.  A house is not really complicated after all, try modelling a car, boat or an aeroplane, and they work.

[SuperJohnG]

This is a loooong thread (not as long long as that covid one though. ?)..and tbh  I've dipped in and out over the last few days without paying real attention. 

 

Sometimes I find,  on the forum, we can strive for assessing what others have done and their input to make a perfect decision where we have analysed all the data.  When in reality you just have to go with what you want and feel is right for you backed up by some input from here. 

 

If you fancy ICF jump in...you'll not go wrong. It'll be fine and perform fantastically compared to 'normal houses'. Just about every house built by everyone on this forum will because we are all into it and thats our passion. 

 

From light reading ....if you have time to pour concrete and can be there labour or DIY ...ICF is a good way forward.

 

For reference....I'm building a SIPS house with insulated foundation. Sure everyone worries about interstitial condensation at the soleplate....but it'll be fine....I'm sure. ?. 

[Bitpipe]

12 hours ago, Mako said:

I’m trying to understand why, are we all building Timberframe if we all can see the problems.

Is it because of price? Easy and familiar methods of construction? I’m not saying concrete, but why Timberframe?
I want to build a house that works, I was recommended to join in here for help, and than advised to do my own research,

im just confirming the knowledge, by no means I’m trying to be rude, sorry if it comes across like that.

There is no consistent information out there, hence it raised a lot of questions.

 

12 hours ago, Mako said:

Thanks, I live in a Timberframe house currently, just asked another member to give more info on Twinwall, not come across it yet.

But timber frame house I live in, friends who build few, what I seen and read, constant movement, every spring and autumn, 

Its getting too much. I said never again, but I’m still considering.

also price, so far it seems timber frame is not the cheapest way to build, but in terms of performance, behaviour I’m yet to find a reason why people doit? Is it lack of knowledge or laziness to find better ways? 
what is your view on Timberframe or what system would you use and why?

 

I have been living in a MBC passive timber frame house for the last 4 years and am not aware of 'the problems'. I have plenty of friends who live in modern brick and block houses who are plagued with problems (overheating, damp spots, draughts, cracks in external walls etc).

 

Irrespective of build method (brick & block, timber frame, ICF, SIPs straw bales etc) a well built, well performing house is more dependent on good system design and execution of build as the build fabric.

 

Timberframe systems are not normally the cheap option, however their ability to be manufactured in controlled conditions off site means they should match the drawings more precisely and allow faster erection on site and shorted lead times for items like windows & doors as these can be ordered off plan ahead of time.

 

My above ground works took 6 weeks to go from the frame erection over the completed basement to scaffolding down (I.e. windows, slate roof, windows, rendered walls, soffit & fascia) in 8 weeks. Inside was fully decked & framed out and ready for insulation pumping and first fix commencement.

 

An ICF or b&b build would have required cheaper materials but require more labour and therefore time. Often windows & doors are not ordered until the apertures are built and measured as there is some risk that 'as built' will not match 'as drawn'.

 

However there is no reason any of these systems should perform better or worse providing there has been the necessary attention to detailing wrt cold bridge elimination, airtightness etc. 

 

The reason houses are not like cars is that they are all one offs, built to order by trades of varying skill, to varying quality control using varying systems and varying budgets. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bitpipe]

12 hours ago, Mako said:

Thank you really appreciate your input, so you combined the concrete in the basement and timber frame on top.

 

Yep just like a trench  or raft foundation combines concrete and timber frame on top - in my case the foundation is a usable space (basement) but structurally it's doing exactly the same job.

 

We looked at ICF to build the basement and then the house above, would have had same airtightness and insulation but came out as a much more expensive option at that time, maybe economics are different now. A lot of the additional expense was labour and not having internal floors or walls included plus a SIPs roof was not cheap as a stand alone item. I was not in a position to DIY the construction and wanted a quick as possible build as I was living in a caravan in the garden with the family.

 

I did all the PM, but to be honest that was easy enough as the basement and timber frame were quite comprehensive packages that left me in a good position.

 

12 hours ago, Mako said:

Could you send a cross section of the Timberframe wall please. Not sure I seen twin wall yet.

 

https://www.mbctimberframe.co.uk/passive-house/passive-wall/

 

[epsilonGreedy]

15 hours ago, Mako said:

I’m trying to understand why, are we all building Timberframe if we all can see the problems.

Is it because of price?

 

 

Not price. If you are politically neutral on the whole global warming debate, the prime motivation for choosing TF as a beginner self builder is "reduction of project risk". One manufacture/install contract delivers something that looks like a house in 6 weeks.

[epsilonGreedy]

14 hours ago, ProDave said:

I have a TF house.  It does not move, creak or in any way feel flimsy.

 

 

One experienced build hubber posted last year that his next project won't be TF because of the problem of noise propagation through the internal structure of the house.

 

If I were to self build again the noise concern would be a top item holding me back from choosing TF compared to my present masonry build.

[SteamyTea]

16 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

If I were to self build again the noise concern would be a top item holding me back from choosing TF compared to my present masonry build.

Can't noise be transmitted in a masonry house then?

Probably why I never ever heard any noise in my last 5 house, and they never ever shook when a large vehicle went past.