Extension- Last Stuff.

[zoothorn]

Just now, Onoff said:

 

+1

 

Onoff I need to talk doors with you. Respite from CH mumbo jumbo.

 

Ive got my door as photo above, in position, gaps all good. So I'm ready to get my hinges fixed. The only way I can see of doing this, as my architrave prevents me attatching hinge to this frame edge, and also, bc even if I could my screws would be almost at the periphery of the frame here.. is to fix like joe's idea, on the inside face of the frame. So actually I'll have to cut a bit out from my plant-on.. or maybe add plant-on over it I just thought of course.

 

So I need to chisel out a recess for the hinge. That's fine. What is tricky tho is using the hinge plate 'back side' this way (on the frame). And the weight of my door is alot it seems, whether I need to be very specific about the screws chosen for these 3x fixings (into the 'back' of each hinge plate as it were), if I need to sit the hinge on a "shelf" for support within the frame, IE my chiselled reccess bit. Should the screws' shafts be as wide say as the hinge holes? thats a big 6mm hole.

 

Then I can only think, in order to get the hinge in correct position on the door face, I gotta attatch hinges to frame 1st > put door into position with wedges etc back like it is now > fix hinges onto doors. IE do it in reverse-way to your suggestion/ usual way iirc, of fixing hinges to door 1st: If I did it this way, Id never get the hinge position correctly onto the frame.. unless a big fluke.

 

And lastly, have you any idea what I'm talking about-? thx zH

[zoothorn]

58 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

Nevermind all that. How's the measuring coming on? 

 

How does this sound for starters..

 

Kitchen: LHS 33.3*... RHS 34.7*

 

Bathroom: L 31*... R 35.7*

 

?? and yet another mystery.. chap in youtube clip said few times idea is "you want a drop of 12*C from one side to the other". Eh??

[ProDave]

35 degrees is barely tepid.  I would have expected radiators to be running certainly over 40 degrees.  If that is the hottest it can get them, it rather looks like the HP is struggling.

 

Turn half of them off completely and see if the half left on get any hotter than that.

 

The small difference between input and output is because they are so cold barely any heat is leaving them into the rooms.

[MJNewton]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

How does this sound for starters..

 

Kitchen: LHS 33.3*... RHS 34.7*

 

Bathroom: L 31*... R 35.7*

 

Good and bad.

 

Good because this is *exactly* why these measurements needed to be taken - you thought the radiators were hot but they are not. At least we now know you *do* have a problem and now know where to look. 

 

Bad because it is no wonder the rooms aren't heating up. Radiator temperatures of ~34C is simply insufficient if heat losses are high and the rads are 'conventionally' sized. You are getting approximately 1/5th of the radiator's output running at that temperature (based on the Delta T being 14C (34C - room temp of 20C) as opposed to 50C).

 

The lockshields are likely too wide open too - too much flow. Don't worry about that just yet though - it's the ASHP that needs the focus. Were you able to measure the flow and return temps at the ASHP? 

Edited January 20, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Good and bad.

 

Good because this is *exactly* why these measurements needed to be taken - you said the radiators were hot but they are not.

 

Bad because it is no wonder the rooms aren't heating up. Radiator temperatures of ~34C is simply insufficient if heat losses are high and the rads are 'conventionally' sized. You are getting approximately 1/5th of the radiator's output running at that temperature (based on the Delta T being 14C (34C - room temp of 20C) as opposed to 50C).

 

The lockshields are likely too wide open too - too much flow. Don't worry about that just yet though - it's the ASHP that needs the focus.

 

 

Hold your horses MJN the temps are going up, I might have peaked too soon.

 

The radiator is hot tho! not stupid hot, it doesn't do that but it doesn't get much hotter than this, if at all. This is a hotter rad than it was with the default ashp setting @ 50* flow temp, because we changed it up to 55*C.

 

Whether the room is heated by this rad tho.. is entirely to do with the room's insulation (or total lack of it) not the rad: this rad would heat my workshop ok, but, I'm very cold in the kitchen even with my fan heater on too, as usual (so, not the rads' fault then > so rad is working fine).

[Onoff]

33 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

And lastly, have you any idea what I'm talking about-? thx zH

 

For a change YES! 

 

The hinges need to sit dead centre of the rails, the end. First thing I'd project centre lines onto the door face in light pencil. 

 

Is the architrave on and fitted? I'd have left it off and set it back a bit from the jam so you don't have to chisel it out. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but your hinge has to go like this:

 

 

(My hinge is bent to buggery btw):

 

 

Now one problem you have is that I imagine like this sh!tty old hinge the countersunks are only one side? I'd not think too hard about this, just use round head screws where it attaches to the jam. They'll push into the door edge a tad, so what. See where they mark it and drill a little recess if necessary for each screw head. It's called compromise!

 

How thick is the door plus the rails? 

 

Screws: What is the hole size in the hinge? Use a twist drill to gauge this. 

 

I'd wedge the door in with the right gap at the bottom so it clears carpet etc. Then slide the hinges up, opened like in my photo so they are on the centre line. Mark where they are going to go. Remove the door and cut out for the hinges. Ordinary hinges but principle's the same:

 

 

When you mark out use a chisel like below:

 

 

If you f*** up drilling the holes then PVA in matchsticks (more than one if required), cut off level and redrill ?:

 

 

 

Having the screw heads all rotated the same way looks nice imo:

 

 

Get on with it!

[MJNewton]

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Hold your horses MJN the temps are going up, I might have peaked too soon.

 

Okay good!

 

I'd sit by the ASHP measuring its output - you'll see the changes soonest there and discover what it maxes out at. Then wander around the radiators doing their measurements. If the flow temperatures start dropping go back to the ASHP and make sure it's still outputting what it was.

[zoothorn]

@MJNewton its a bit tricky cos temps are changing. 5* in a few minutes.

 

2 mins ago I read in kitchen L 40.2*... R 38.9*.

Now its L 35.5*... R 34.9* (cooling down period?)

 

And bathroom 2 mins ago L 31.8*... R 39.7*

Just now bathroom its L 26.1*.. R 27.8* (I think its surely doing this on / off/ on thing until desired temp is reached in thermostat room, I presume normal, so how you're meant to do these temp readings at all I've no idea). By god its cold in my bathroom as usual.

[MJNewton]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@MJNewton its a bit tricky cos temps are changing. 5* in a few minutes.

 

2 mins ago I read in kitchen L 40.2*... R 38.9*.

Now its L 35.5*... R 34.9* (cooling down period?)

 

And bathroom 2 mins ago L 31.8*... R 39.7*

Just now bathroom its L 26.1*.. R 27.8* (I think its surely doing this on / off/ on thing until desired temp is reached in thermostat room, I presume normal, so how you're meant to do these temp readings at all I've no idea). By god its cold in my bathroom as usual.

 

Assuming the target set in the 'thermostat room' is high (please tell me you haven't left it at 15C or something) then - unless my ignorance of how ASHPs operate is showing - I would expect it to be running flat out whilst there's still a massive amount of heat required.

 

With rads at 40C you're still only getting 1/3rd of what they would output at 70C. I know you'll never reach 70C with the ASHP but it's likely that's what the radiators have been sized for (if they've been sized at all). If you can get 55C from the ASHP you're only at 2/3rd max output - still below par but twice as much heat as you're currently getting. That'd surely make a difference to the rooms regardless what their construction is like.

 

Personally I'd ignore the rads for a moment. Sit by the ASHP and measure its flow and return every few minutes. See how it behaves. If it's never going above 40C then *that's* your problem; not your house.

Edited January 20, 2021 by MJNewton

[Onoff]

6 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

By god its cold in my bathroom as usual.

 

Has it dropped below 9degC in there yet?

[zoothorn]

Just now, MJNewton said:

 

Assuming the target set in the 'thermostat room' is high (please tell me you haven't left it at 15C or something) then - unless my ignorance of how ASHPs operate is showing - I would expect it to be running flat out whilst there's still a massive amount of heat required.

 

With rads at 40C you're still only get 1/3rd of what they would output at 70C. I know you'll never reach 70C with the ASHP but it's likely that's what the radiators have been sized for (if they've been sized at all). If you can get 55C from the ASHP you're only at 2/3rd max output - still below par but twice as much heat as you're currently getting. That'd surely make a difference.

 

No no its set to 22* (but never gets there, so safe until it goes off at 9pm). I dont think this ashp works like that 'flat out until' scenario, if only it did Id have more heat Im sure. It tends to do a burst, then idles to almost no heat at all from rad for a good 20 mins usually (or 90mins from 6.30M to 8am unfortunately), another burst etc.

 

Now Ive noticed it does a mini burst thing perhaps of a 5* drop perhaps only, unnoticeable in the rads' heat by hand, bc now it creeping up to 39* (LHS in kitchen rad) again. I think this is like a 10 minute interval thing.

[MJNewton]

19 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Having the screw heads all rotated the same way looks nice imo

 

I'll never forget once chatting to my plasterer and him telling me he can spot the 'fussy' customers because all their screw heads are oriented the same way. The look on my face must've indicated I didn't quite get what he was referring given the absurdity so he went over to the lightswitch to show me the types of screws he was talking about. Only when he got up close did he spot mine were perfectly aligned (horizontal of course; none of this vertical nonsense) then he checked the socket just in case it was coincidence. Oh no - I was one of *those* people.

Edited January 20, 2021 by MJNewton

[ProDave]

13 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Personally I'd ignore the rads for a moment. Sit by the ASHP and measure its flow and return every few minutes. See how it behaves. If it's never going above 40C then *that's* your problem; not your house.

See my post earlier.  Turn off half the radiators and see if the ones left on get properly hot.  That will start to tell you where the problem is.

 

Or even more extreme, turn them all off but one.  That one left on should have no problem getting properly hot.  If it still does not then something is set seriously wrong with the ASHP.

 

If that one radiator gets properly hot, turn on another. do they both get properly hot?  If so turn on a third and so un until you reach the point they can't all get hot.

 

Report the findings.

[MJNewton]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

No no its set to 22* (but never gets there, so safe until it goes off at 9pm). I dont think this ashp works like that 'flat out until' scenario, if only it did Id have more heat Im sure. It tends to do a burst, then idles to almost no heat at all from rad for a good 20 mins usually (or 90mins from 6.30M to 8am unfortunately), another burst etc.

 

Okay; I'll have to defer to others with ASHP knowledege/experience to see if that's normal. If it's going to work like that and never deliver water at 55C even when it is on it won't heat your house. Period.

Edited January 20, 2021 by MJNewton

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, MJNewton said:

 

I'll never forget once chatting to my plasterer and him telling me he can spot the 'fussy' customers because all their screw heads are oriented the same way. The look on my face must've indicated I didn't quite get the absurdity of what he was referring to so he went over to the lightswitch to show me the types of screw he was talking about. Only when he got up close did he spot mine were perfectly aligned (horizontal of course; none of this vertical nonsense) then he checked the socket just in case it was coincidence. Oh no - I was one of *those* people. ?

Back in the day, it was a trademark of a BR craftsman that all the screw heads were lined up.

 

Of course the engineer would argue by doing that they cannot possibly all be tightened to the correct torque.

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Of course the engineer would argue by doing that they cannot possibly all be tightened to the correct torque

I concur!      None of mine line up.

[Onoff]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Back in the day, it was a trademark of a BR craftsman that all the screw heads were lined up.

 

Of course the engineer would argue by doing that they cannot possibly all be tightened to the correct torque.

 

Especially in potentially brittle face plates (though I still try and do it). 

[Onoff]

Top tip when chiselling out for hinges. Make sure the bevel faces the waste side. This should ensure you cut to the line and not over it.

 

[Gone West]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Just why Im measuring the pipes temps, nothing more than that tbh, why i cant determine if a room or a rad is or isnt getting warm just by feeling it. The book a good suggestion, but likely wont understand nearly all of it if I cant understand the purpose of this balance procedure.

The book I mentioned explains balancing radiators and all aspects of CH in simple terms, it isn't highly technical.

[Onoff]

Just now, PeterStarck said:

The book I mentioned explains balancing radiators and all aspects of CH in simple terms, it isn't highly technical.

 

Like Ladybird simple?

[zoothorn]

22 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Has it dropped below 9degC in there yet?

 

What ever? it was below that Im sure before this rad was in, say last winter.

Its 12.5* overnight, 13.5* 1st thing am in here on average, 14.5* at its max Ive ever had it.. say 4pm.

 

Thanks for the door info: I'll go over this tmrw, but yes that's the idea/ setting the hinge in your photo like that. I did put the architrave in by 1/4", or rather away for hinge clearance: looks spot on perfect to me too rather a fluke.

 

@MJNewton

 

Kitchen is now L 42.5*...R 44*.

Bathroom L 37.6*... R 44.4*

 

I think that's max I'm gonna get in these two (coldest) adjacent rooms down here.. temps are going down now 9pm/ off.

 

 

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Its 12.5* overnight, 13.5* 1st thing am in here on average, 14.5* at its max Ive ever had it.. say 4pm.

 

Luxury! I shower in mine at about 9/10degC. I DREAM of 14.5!

[zoothorn]

25 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Okay; I'll have to defer to others with ASHP knowledege/experience to see if that's normal. If it's going to work like that and never deliver water at 55C even when it is on it won't heat your house. Period.

 

Should I have expected to read 55* then on the 'in' side of either of these two rads at any time?

 

Bear in mind one rad -does- heat one room well: the workshop, & with a rad approx same size as kitchen's.. workshop approx 2x the size of kitchen.

[dpmiller]

22 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Should I have expected to read 55* then on the 'in' side of either of these two rads at any time?

 

 

yes!

[zoothorn]

11 hours ago, dpmiller said:

yes!

 

Ok, but if the water is made @55*, & as its a new system it's got to be near this figure if not bang on, goes along copper pipes across a smallish loft, down a floor into room.. & I measure down at the rad, how can I expect it to still be 55* though? it has to lose something, surely.

 

Measure again today -RHS I assume the flow side as it's usually higher- in kitchen its 44* like yesterday's best temp. I think 8.20am is a good time to measure rads as just started 30mins ago (seem to idle as said from 6.30 to 7.50 or so, no heat produced) & 1st time up to speed is ~8am.

 

12.7*C kitchen & bathroom temps!