Extension- Last Stuff.

[zoothorn]

24 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

Just order a few off Amazon... I did and they turned up next day (4 of them for £9.99).

 

Ok understood. But look 1st, why can't i assume that if the system is set to 55*, then surely the rads are near as dammit (Im not fussy about needing super Onoff accuracy, am I?) all 55* too?
 

Even if they're a degree or two off, I still don't get why i need to know a more accurate flow figure anywhere in the system, if the ultimate results are simply if the room feels warm, or not, and you could 'balance the SYSTEM' by saying yes this rooms warm, no that rooms not as warm.

 

(IE Im obviously missing something.. I just need a bit more explanation of the purpose of these gizmos.)

Edited January 15, 2021 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

16 minutes ago, joe90 said:

So Archimedes is an idiot now, says it all really.

joe.. you dissapoint me. I threw that out but wasn't expecting you to fall for it ?

[ash_scotland88]

On 13/01/2021 at 22:06, MJNewton said:

If that was your bare ass on the radiator I don't reckon it is 55C. You really need to measure them Zoot - it could really help pinpoint where the problem lies. 

Because a few degrees off make all the difference.

If my house is 19degrees I am comfortable, if it's 17 I'm starting to feel cold.

Alternatively if it's 14degrees outside it's jeans and a top, if it's 16 it's shorts and t-shirts.

Yet 16degrees in the house is cold but outside it's warm. Weird, innit.

 

I'm finding your reluctance to accept a phrase coined in an industry to use it's correct meaning incredibly frustrating. It's like going to France and refusing to believe "petit dejouner" is breakfast as it litterly translates as "small lunch" then telling everyone it's wrong and doesn't mean breakfast and you don't have a small lunch,  you only eat a breakfast and lunch.

 

/Rant over

[MJNewton]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Even if they're a degree or two off, I still don't get why i need to know a more accurate flow figure anywhere in the system, if the ultimate results are simply if the room feels warm, or not, and you could 'balance the SYSTEM' by saying yes this rooms warm, no that rooms not as warm.

 

It is so much easier balancing radiators if you can actually measure the flow and return temperatures, indeed I probably wouldn't bother trying if I couldn't unless it was purely to get a radiator working that wasn't receiving any flow at all. But if you know best then crack on and let us know when it's done. We can then rule out lack of balance and inadequate flow temperature from the list of possible causes. 

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, ash_scotland88 said:

Because a few degrees off make all the difference.

If my house is 19degrees I am comfortable, if it's 17 I'm starting to feel cold.

Alternatively if it's 14degrees outside it's jeans and a top, if it's 16 it's shorts and t-shirts.

Yet 16degrees in the house is cold but outside it's warm. Weird, innit.

 

I'm finding your reluctance to accept a phrase coined in an industry to use it's correct meaning incredibly frustrating. It's like going to France and refusing to believe "petit dejouner" is breakfast as it litterly translates as "small lunch" then telling everyone it's wrong and doesn't mean breakfast and you don't have a small lunch,  you only eat a breakfast and lunch.

 

/Rant over

Argh!!

 

Im not 'refusing to accept it' (im just refusing -to use- it only bc its caused me grief because its inherrantly illogical!).

 

I fully accept what it means within the context of plummerry, now I know its meaning/ it's not to be taken literally!

 

strewth alive. Please.

 

-----------

 

But if I have a thermometre, which i easily take room to room wait only 15 mins to read well,  that tells me your 17 or 19 figure.. so Im not getting why the extra exercise with the gizmo on the pipe (& also if i know with some accuracy id assume, my 55* flow temp is also in the pipes).

 

Surely i buy the gizmo, put on a pipe, & it says uniformly maybe 55*. So I bought the gizmo for..... ?

[Gav_P]

Ffs just spend the £10 get them on the pipes and share the numbers. 
Just trust the experts who are trying to help you... it’s bloody frustrating enough for those of us on the sidelines.

 

[Gav_P]

Worse case you’ve wasted £10

[joe90]

4 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

it’s bloody frustrating enough for those of us on the sidelines.

?

[zoothorn]

15 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

It is so much easier balancing radiators if you can actually measure the flow and return temperatures, indeed I probably wouldn't bother trying if I couldn't unless it was purely to get a radiator working that wasn't receiving any flow at all. But if you know best then crack on and let us know when it's done. We can then rule out lack of balance and inadequate flow temperature from the list of possible causes. 

I dont know best. The opposite. I dont understand something. so I am asking MJN. 
 

But surely if you restrict a rad, within the balancing the system idea, for a room that's hotter for eg

 

(presuming this might be part of the balance exercise, as illogical as that intrinsically is because you are creating a flippin imbalance if altering/ restricting any rad's temp relative to another... but i go along with it) 

 

...the flow and return temps dont change. I mean how can they change, unless cold water is introduced? I cant think of any other way a flow temp can change, apart from if I change the whole shebangs overall 'flow temp' on the controller.

 

 

[Gav_P]

Just now, zoothorn said:

flow and return temps dont change

I know nothing about heating... but I’m fairly confident that if you reduce the flow it will certainly affect the heat output of the radiator and then the return will change proportionately. 

[Declan52]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Yes.. but the point was, because 'balance radiators' is an unambiguous term if used correctly (as i think you can appreciate is surely a logical conclusion from these two words)... the point was, i was resolute in thinking nothing other than one rad is in balance with another, the same, the same temp.
 

So i had understood these two words together perfectly so i was thinking, as is logical to, for a whole page of replies telling me otherwise, hence the enormous & frustrating confusion. There was never any reason for any possible misinterpretation of the term. Its only because it was made by an idiot this confusion happened.
 

But i was never in the know that i didnt understand the term!!!!

 

Only once it was explained (not outright, i had to glean this info from jfb's reply) that in effect 'balance radiators'............. is not to be taken literally.................. could i then understand it meant in fact 'balance room temps' ( & not a balance of rads at all !!!).

 

The stupid fkn term was probably coined back in ancient rome or something, by Archimedes, or Diabetes or some such ancient idiot i shouldn't wonder.

 

 

 

 

No you have just proved my point. You didn't understand what was written and a quick search would have brought up countless guides and YouTube clips  explaining how and why you do this. Try it the next time.

 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

So Archimedes is an idiot now, says it all really.

 

Screw Archimedes I say.

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

Worse case you’ve wasted £10

No work gav. Every £10 means alot now tbh.

 

Im not obdurately just refusing to buy the gizmos. No, I just want to understand their purpose 1st (other than "a thermometre dummy"). I am only just starting to try understanding this system balancing, now i know my rads are not balanced after all -as i thought that they were up until only hrs ago- which Im sure I'll be quite capable of doing fine, but once the basics are understood 1st is the right idea.

Its just Im not getting the gist, the principle of this gizmo's function, thats all. I'll get it but like building anything, it takes me 10x the time it does you.

 

thx zh

[Pocster]

7 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

No you have just proved my point. You didn't understand what was written and a quick search would have brought up countless guides and YouTube clips  explaining how and why you do this. Try it the next time.

 

Ffs ! I posted a link to help @zoothorn

Not directed at you @Declan52

Edited January 15, 2021 by pocster

[MJNewton]

20 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

...the flow and return temps dont change. I mean how can they change, unless cold water is introduced? I cant think of any other way a flow temp can change, apart from if I change the whole shebangs overall 'flow temp' on the controller.

 

 

 

Whilst there is indeed no cold water introduced you must remember/realise that the radiator is extracting heat from the water and transferring that heat to the room. If you throttle the lockshield (which is usually on the return) then the flow through the radiator decreases and allows more time for extraction to take place. Too slow and it'll fail to deliver its full output. If you open it up then the amount of heat extractable increases but do it too far and it'll exceed the radiators capacity and that heated water will return to the heat pump. This 'wasted' flow could've been of more use elsewhere ie run through radiators that are getting insufficient flow to them. That's where balancing comes in - tweaking the flows through each radiator so they get the right amount of flow for their size/capacity/location, ensuring there's enough to go round, helping rooms heat up at the same rate and (for boilers at least - don't know anything about ASHPs) increasing efficiency by minimising short circuits and enabling condensing boilers to extract even more heat from their condensating ability. 

 

A thermometer on the flow and return will enable you to observe the effect of adjusting the lockshield, and the former will also tell you if you really are getting water at 55C to all your radiators. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

No you have just proved my point. You didn't understand what was written and a quick search would have brought up countless guides and YouTube clips  explaining how and why you do this. Try it the next time.

 

No, sorry, you dont understand Declan.

 

I was under the sole impression, because 'balance something' means a parity of something in english.... that my rads were balanced because they were all a similar temp. Logical. Logical. Logical.

 

They were not balanced, only because these two words, in plummerry world & here only, for some inexplicable reason................... do not in fact mean parity.

 

Balance = parity. Usually!
 

enough.

[Gav_P]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

No, sorry, you dont understand Declan.

 

I was under the sole impression, because 'balance something' means a parity of something in english.... that my rads were balanced because they were all a similar temp. Logical. Logical. Logical.

 

They were not balanced, only because these two words, in plummerry world & here only, for some inexplicable reason................... do not in fact mean parity.

 

Balance = parity. Usually!
 

enough.

Like balancing on a bike, or tightrope, wheels on a car... all different uses for the same word... English language isn’t always logical. 

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Whilst there is indeed no cold water introduced you must remember/realise that the radiator is extracting heat from the water and transferring that heat to the room. If you throttle the lockshield (which is usually on the return) then the flow through the radiator decreases and allowing more time for extraction to take place. Too slow and it'll fail to deliver its full output. If you open it up then the amount of heat extractable increases but do it too far and it'll exceed the radiators capacity and that heated water will return to the heat pump. This 'wasted' flow could've been of more use elsewhere ie run through radiators that are getting insufficient flow to them. That's where balancing comes in - tweaking the flows through each radiator so they get the right amount of flow for their size/capacity/location, ensuring there's enough to go round, helping rooms heat up at the same rate and (for boilers at least - don't know anything about ASHPs) increasing efficiency by minimising short circuits. 

 

A thermometer on the flow and return will enable you to observe the effect of adjusting the lockshield, and the former will also tell you if you really are getting water at 55C to all your radiators. 

Ok really appreciated this explanation MJN. 
 

It'll take me 10x reads of it to understand tho, a heck of alot there to absorb & for me to make sense of, and I will ask q's if i still dont get a part of it.. but I'll go through this info tmrw.

 

cheers zoot

[MJNewton]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ok really appreciated this explanation MJN. 
 

It'll take me 10x reads of it to understand tho, a heck of alot there to absorb & for me to make sense of, and I will ask q's if i still dont get a part of it.. but I'll go through this info tmrw.

 

cheers zoot

 

No problem, and I'm glad you read it - I'm typing on a phone and might've exploded if you'd just dismissed it and kept on going about dictionary definitions of the word 'balance'. 

 

For what it's worth, radiator balancing can be mind bending even when you understand it - particularly if you overthink it rather than just go through the right process (which is iterative and can take a while). It is really important though - or at least highly desirable - but often isn't done, properly at least. Many just twiddle a few knobs until everything feels hot and leave it at that. That's fine; they get away with it but this is largely due to the nuclear reactor they've got burning away at the front. You haven't got that luxury (I say luxury; they are unnecessarily overpaying due to the inefficiencies running like this) and so you need to get the most out of that heat pump you've got and be able to quantifiably determine whether you are getting it or not. Even just simply confirming that whilst you've set it to 55C is that what you're getting? 

Edited January 15, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, Gav_P said:

Like balancing on a bike, or tightrope, wheels on a car... all different uses for the same word... English language isn’t always logical. 

Yup balance anything under the sun.. there's still intrinsically a parity of one side to the other gav.

 

Apart from 'balancing radiators' when the opposite is true! you create an -imbalance- in the rads one to the next... in order to achieve a balance of temperature one room to the next. 

Total nonsensical illogical numnuts as ever Ive heard in my whole life. Nope I agree english is sometimes illogical, but it is perfectly logical though to assume 'balance whatever' means just this a balance, an equity, a parity!

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

No problem, and I'm glad you read it - I'm typing on a phone and might've exploded if you'd just dismissed it and kept on going about dictionary definitions of the word 'balance'. 

 

For what it's worth, radiator balancing can be mind bending even when you understand it - particularly if you overthink it rather than just go through the right process (which is iterative, time confusing and can take a while). It is really important though - or at least highly desirable - but often isn't done, properly at least. Many just twiddle a few knobs until everything feels hot and leave it at that. That's fine; they get away with it but this is largely due to the nuclear reactor they've got burning away at the front. You haven't got that luxury (I say luxury; they are unnecessarily overpaying due to the inefficiencies running like this) and so you need to get the most out of that heat pump you've got and be able to quantifiably determine whether you are getting it or not. Even just simply confirming that whilst you've set it to 55C is that what you're getting? 

 

Kapisch up to nuclear reactor.. and from there to the end, no kapisch & my head exploded (especially what "it" might be: cant cope with cryptic schmyptics on top of nuclear numnums). So Ill likely only be able to extract half at best of what you speak of! Will try afresh tmrw no.3 tho.

[MJNewton]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Apart from 'balancing radiators' when the opposite is true! you create an -imbalance- in the rads one to the next... in order to achieve a balance of temperature one room to the next. 

 

No, it really is *balancing* radiators. The aim of the adjustments is to make the temperature drop across each radiator the same. If the radiators are correctly sized then this will *in turn* lead to the rooms being heated at the same rate. 

 

There is nothing wrong with the term. Please stop with the arguing as it is not helping get your house warmer (quite the opposite in fact - it is putting people off helping). 

[MJNewton]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Kapisch up to nuclear reactor.. and from there to the end, no kapisch & my head exploded (especially what "it" might be: cant cope with cryptic schmyptics on top of nuclear numnums).

 

'It' = your ASHP, and the flow temperature you've set it to in particular. 

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

it is putting people off helping). 

Yup, join the club, the list is growing .

[MJNewton]

8 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Yup, join the club, the list is growing .

 

I must admit I've moved on myself a couple of times but have always returned as I'm interested in the subject, can always learn more from others and, more to the point, don't like to think of anyone being persistently cold as that's no fun at all. Very frustrating though. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by MJNewton