Extension- Last Stuff.

[Declan52]

Use your knuckle and tap on the ceiling where you want the hatch. If it's just plasterboard it will sound hollow. If your on a joist it will sound solid. Then do as above.

[Pocster]

56 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

As I've said before upstairs is probably due to loft insulation.

You can always find the screw heads holding the plasterboard to the joists with a detector or small magnets. If you can stretch to increasing the loft insulation to 300mm it will reduce heat loss a lot. Fit the insulation snuggly between the joists and then another layer over the whole lot in the other direction.

I did extensive research on stud detectors .

My scientific and technical conclusion was they are all shit .

 

 

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

How about doing the settings I said and seeing what happens ..??

 

 

 

I cant for another week due to/ until wretched overnight noise is stopped, so cant run it overnight even to 15*.

 

It seems 20.5* is best it can get to in thermostat spare room, after 10 hrs (desired 23* 8am). I do have the new top room to 17.4*, best yet, put a blanket over doorway as a test, not expecting much but 1* better. Its a start. So Ive got to put insulation on door back, will ruin the cottage look, shame. Still hat & scarf mind you, only a semblence of warmth. Cold nose, putting on a mask helps.

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

 

I cant for another week due to/ until wretched overnight noise is stopped, so cant run it overnight even to 15*.

 

It seems 20.5* is best it can get to in thermostat spare room, after 10 hrs (desired 23* 8am). I do have the new top room to 17.4*, best yet, put a blanket over doorway as a test, not expecting much but 1* better. Its a start. So Ive got to put insulation on door back, will ruin the cottage look, shame. Still hat & scarf mind you, only a semblence of warmth. Cold nose, putting on a mask helps.

 

Just get a door snake and put it down when you go to bed.

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Is there anyway that this system can be set to one flow temperature, say 50⁰C and left on that permanently. So no mucking about with different temperatures, or times.

Then see which rooms get warm, and which ones don't.

Then, if necessary, balance the system, see what temperatures the rooms go to.

If, the house gets warm enough, then set some on off times.

 

So basically set it up like an old gas boiler.

 

I was thinking put flow temp to 50*, just for a bit more econo.. im very concerned with the running cost so far, esp for such little gain.

 

 But seeing which rooms get warm, is primarily dependent on the insulation values surely.. apart from my anomally new room, seems as cold as an uninsulated room.. i really need to test the output of the rad, taking into acc its size, but how is the q. I guess i cant tho.

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

I just fitted a 450x450 FlipFix hatch. A Doddle to fit. Press the cardboard template on the ceiling and draw round it with a Sharpie. Cut out the pb with a pad saw. Push the hatch up and tighten 4 screws. Job done.

 

https://flipfix.co.uk/?

Interesting, but dont i need to add timber nogs for structure, if im hauling my ass up onto the top of it here?

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Interesting, but dont i need to add timber nogs for structure, if im hauling my ass up onto the top of it here?

Might be a good idea to put one at each end of the hatch just to support the plasterboard edge.

[PeterW]

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

So Ive got to put insulation on door back, will ruin the cottage look, shame.

Why have you ..??

 

Just start by doing the bloody obvious stuff first please and not be negative. Decent fitting door, closed when you go to bed and the heating set to the settings requested ... 

[TonyT]

I’ve tried to read this thread from the start, but can’t make my mind up.......

 

is there a page that actually advises the male and model of the ASHP?

same with controller?

has the Op drawn a general layout of equipment?

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

22 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

i really need to test the output of the rad, taking into acc its size,

Measure it ..! And then post the measurements on here, with what the top looks like (twin panels, one row of zig zag steel etc) and I will tell you exactly the output. 

[SteamyTea]

40 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 But seeing which rooms get warm, is primarily dependent on the insulation values surely

More any imbalance between input and output. 

You can have an uninsulated room, but with huge radiators, running at a low temperature, and the air can still get up to the temperature you want.

Conversely, you can have a well insulated room, very small, but very hot, radiators, and still not get up to the temperature you want.

Or

Two identically sized rooms, both with the same radiator size in them, but the water flow to one radiator is greater than the other, so one room will be hotter than the other (this is how a thermostat on the radiator works).

 

Why I suggest that you turn the ASHP on, get the flow temperature up to 50°C, open all the user settable thermostats to Max °C, including any that physically on the radiators.  Leave it running, so no night time setback, no switching it off, and just see what happens.

You may have to leave it like this for a couple of days, no good after a few hours thinking it is doing nothing different, and abandoning it.

AND KEEP IT RUNNING ALL NIGHT.

I shall repeat that.

AND KEEP IT RUNNING ALL NIGHT.

[Onoff]

51 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Interesting, but dont i need to add timber nogs for structure, if im hauling my ass up onto the top of it here?

 

Maybe this type isn't for you then as this clamps to the plasterboard rather than screwing to the sides of the joists.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, Onoff said:

 

Maybe this type isn't for you then as this clamps to the plasterboard rather than screwing to the sides of the joists.

Yes, just put the noggins a little away from the 450mm hole.

[Onoff]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Yes, just put the noggins a little away from the 450mm hole.

 

If he treads on this type of hatch, from above, I reckon it could break away the plasterboard if that's all it'd clamped to. Mine is an access panel not a loft hatch. @zoothorn, look on YouTube for "Manthorpe loft hatch". 

 

For example:

 

 

You really need to know your joist spacing. You might need to add packing pieces. 

 

I'd use some neodymium magnets to find the existing pb screws. 

[PeterW]

I don’t think there is enough access up there for him to get there anyway - this will purely be to add insulation. 

[zoothorn]

@SteamyTea appreciate the thoughts, get your ideas. But look I cant leave it running.. as the noise is too intrusive to sleep.

 

Once I get this fixed, finally on friday they say ( but no confidence & my patience has run out with even the vaillant engineers having another week of this fkn noise to put up with, or, very cold house 1 st thing if i turn it off last thing at night to sleep).. then i can determine xyz, do tests both you & Peter have been kindly outlining.

 

thanks zoot

[zoothorn]

17 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

If he treads on this type of hatch, from above, I reckon it could break away the plasterboard if that's all it'd clamped to. Mine is an access panel not a loft hatch. @zoothorn, look on YouTube for "Manthorpe loft hatch". 

 

For example:

 

 

You really need to know your joist spacing. You might need to add packing pieces. 

 

I'd use some neodymium magnets to find the existing pb screws. 

Great ideas as usual  Onoff. Yes Im thinking this ideal, if ive got this timber frame bit ready, and perfectly sized for it. This will be lions share of the job.. what i really need the advice on, beforehand. 
 

Do you know if timber frame builds like mine have a typical ceiling joist spacing? Maybe this fig is industry std, and this hatch marries to this fig.. ideally i need to know this fig before i start cutting into pb.

[zoothorn]

17 hours ago, PeterW said:

I don’t think there is enough access up there for him to get there anyway - this will purely be to add insulation. 

Hi Peter.. can you explain what you mean here, 'not enough access up there for me to get there'.

 

thx zh

[Onoff]

Peter I think was getting at the fact I'd suggested an access hatch that clips to the edges of a hole cut in plasterboard. This as opposed to a proper loft hatch. My worry was if you got up into the loft space you could tread on the access hatch frame and damage the plasterboard edges. A proper loft hatch affixes to the timber joists. Peter is wondering if in fact there's enough room up there for you to climb in there even I think. If not it'll be a case of working off of steps, rolling out more fluffy stuff and probably pushing it into place with a long stick.

[SteamyTea]

34 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

as the noise is too intrusive to sleep.

You are not sleeping anyway, and I think, if you do get your house up to temperature, it may well not have to run during the night.

There is no way you can not try this in reality.  If I was the installer, I would just claim that you were turning it off all the time and making a fuss about nothing, then charge you £10k to remove it.

 

It is a bit like trying to drive a car up a hill, a car where you refuse to use the brakes at all, but after you have moved 50 metres, you just let it roll back.  Then claim it is the car/hill/life that is faulty.

[zoothorn]

16 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

You are not sleeping anyway, and I think, if you do get your house up to temperature, it may well not have to run during the night.

There is no way you can not try this in reality.  If I was the installer, I would just claim that you were turning it off all the time and making a fuss about nothing, then charge you £10k to remove it.

 

It is a bit like trying to drive a car up a hill, a car where you refuse to use the brakes at all, but after you have moved 50 metres, you just let it roll back.  Then claim it is the car/hill/life that is faulty.

ST with respect, i am sleeping because im turning the whole shebang off 11 pm, turning it back on 6.30 am. Apart from last noght when i forgot.. and it woke me up at 5.20am. On friday, this noise will be fixed they say.. so i just have to wait until i can do your idea.

 

Im not in contact with any installer. They refuse to answer, so i have only vaillant as options to try and get xyz fixed. I still have a water leak low pressure issue too. Thats not gonna help, esp if i come in turn on 6.30 am and get an error code i have to call them up at 8 am to walk me thru turning taps etc to remedy.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

and it woke me up at 5.20am

Shipping Forecast is on then, everyone should be up.

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/specialist-forecasts/coast-and-sea/shipping-forecast

 

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Im not in contact with any installer. They refuse to answer,

None of us will be surprised with that, they may well know that you keep turning it off, some of these units have loggers in them and they will know what is going on.

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Great ideas as usual  Onoff. Yes Im thinking this ideal, if ive got this timber frame bit ready, and perfectly sized for it. This will be lions share of the job.. what i really need the advice on, beforehand. 
 

Do you know if timber frame builds like mine have a typical ceiling joist spacing? Maybe this fig is industry std, and this hatch marries to this fig.. ideally i need to know this fig before i start cutting into pb.

 

400,450 and 600mm are the standard spacing. Some builders will still work in inches, some take the dimensions to the centre of the joist, others between faces.

 

So two chances of the joists being exactly the spacing you want, slim & f*** all. You'll likely need a sliver or more of packing. Be it little plastic ones or strips of timber.

 

I would:

 

-Decide roughly where you want your hatch 

-Refer back to your pictures as to whether there's any existing noggin there, you might be able to use it as the 3rd side leaving just one noggin to fit.

-Use some strong diddy magnets to stick on the hidden plasterboard screws. That won't mean of course the screws are dead centre to the joist. It'll give an idea though

-Cut an access hole smaller than for the hatch. 

-Measure from the edges of the cut hole to the inside faces of the joists / noggins.

-Transpose to the ceiling in pencil

-Choose your hatch. I'd suggest an insulated one. 

-Cut the hatch hole with respect to the pencil lines on the ceiling.

-Fit it

 

Not forgetting to have a good whinge along the way about how it's all too much for you and now you've this big hole in your ceiling! ?

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Shipping Forecast is on then, everyone should be up.

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/specialist-forecasts/coast-and-sea/shipping-forecast

 

None of us will be surprised with that, they may well know that you keep turning it off, some of these units have loggers in them and they will know what is going on.

 

Ok thanks ST. This is ridiculous. Ive said I have no choice but turn it off if I want to sleep; its clear here you just want to blame me now for seemingly anything at all bc you're impatient & assuming Im not doing what's suggested/ you're not understanding how I can only wait till  its fixed & the noise fks off, to be able to keep it on overnight/ then do things that are being suggested.

 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

 

400,450 and 600mm are the standard spacing. Some builders will still work in inches, some take the dimensions to the centre of the joist, others between faces.

 

So two chances of the joists being exactly the spacing you want, slim & f*** all. You'll likely need a sliver or more of packing. Be it little plastic ones or strips of timber.

 

I would:

 

-Decide roughly where you want your hatch 

-Refer back to your pictures as to whether there's any existing noggin there, you might be able to use it as the 3rd side leaving just one noggin to fit.

-Use some strong diddy magnets to stick on the hidden plasterboard screws. That won't mean of course the screws are dead centre to the joist. It'll give an idea though

-Cut an access hole smaller than for the hatch. 

-Measure from the edges of the cut hole to the inside faces of the joists / noggins.

-Transpose to the ceiling in pencil

-Choose your hatch. I'd suggest an insulated one. 

-Cut the hatch hole with respect to the pencil lines on the ceiling.

-Fit it

 

Not forgetting to have a good whinge along the way about how it's all too much for you and now you've this big hole in your ceiling! ?

 

 

 

 

Great- much appreciated as always Onoff. Ive dug out some scribbles/ I wrote down distance from french doors > back to joist 1 > then to joist 2 etc (where exactly I measured to.. I can only assume front edge of joist/ muggins didnt think to put this info on!). Why Ive no idea!

 

So 360mm to joist 1, 600 to j2, 610 to j3 (& a 61.5" figure at this juncture). This info should help I guess. 600 from j1 to j2 looks useful? quite  far fwd, near french doors tho.

 

Access: as to PeterW's idea I now understand.. I'm not sure how I'd know: would pics of the ceiling being built be best judge? I seemed to recall thinking 'board it/ useful for a loft if I could' IE just for storage, not a room. So I'd think midpoint, I could stand stooped over let's put it, maybe 5ft or so.