Extension- Last Stuff.

[PeterW]

@zoothorn I think the huge uninsulated wall behind your bed has something to do with this. That is acting as a heat sink, downstairs the Insulation and air tightness is much better and I think this may be why the upper room is struggling. 
 

I would also do what @newhome has said and start by turning down all the radiators to 50% but the one in this room. 
 

Have you also had your wood burner lit..?? That will help with background heat and costs you very little to run. 

[newhome]

57 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I suspect that you took notice of science lessons at school, rather than think "they are of no use to me".

Well I did A levels in science rather than history and politics ? 

[newhome]

I’ve probably missed this somewhere but does your ASHP do it’s own thing and come on when it thinks it needs to or is it set to go off at specific times? 
 

And the only way you’ll work out how much it is costing you is to read the meter daily and calculate it. No point in stressing over something that’s easy to work out. Once you know how much it’s costing you can either rest easy or have some further evidence to go back to the company with. Did they tell you what the COP should be as it should use at least 2 or 3 times less energy than the heat it produces at these “not quite winter” temperatures surely? 

[Gone West]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

But i just worry if it'll make only minimal difference. At mo you see, new top room huge rad on ( pretty hot) since 8.. but i can feel cold in my legs thru my thermals, in hips, breathing coldish air, items, bed very cold. This is why my back got so cold 1st night in here (still aches from this awful night too). Theres little warmth in the room (in fact nex5 door uninsulated terribly cold bedroom, with rad turned off, feels similar).

The problem with old thick walled houses is that they have a lot of 'thermal mass' (naughty, naughty ) and absorb a lot of heat and it takes a long time for the temperature throughout the whole area to equalise. When the heating has been on for a long time the temperatures settle down and everything will feel warm. That's why having a thermometer will give a good idea of how long it's taking to warm up. Your new extension should warm up much quicker than the original part of the house unless of course there isn't sufficient insulation in the loft.

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

That's why having a thermometer will give a good idea of how long it's taking to warm up.

Depending on your viewpoint, just knowing the air temperature will not take the radiative element into account.

27 minutes ago, newhome said:

And the only way you’ll work out how much it is costing you is to read the meter daily and calculate it.

Once you have removed all other power draws, and taken into account the ∆T.

Not that trivial really.

[newhome]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Once you have removed all other power draws, and taken into account the ∆T.

Not that trivial really.

Simple enough if you tend to use roughly the same number of units on an ordinary day. It’s only the additional units that @zoothorn should be interested in, and we’re talking in terms of cost, nothing more. If zoot reads the meter and calculates that his bill isn’t going to explode then all good. If it is then some further investigation is needed as to the cause with hourly readings being taken. I did that with my meter over the course of a couple of weeks and have a fairly decent idea of what standard usage is and how using various appliances affects the usage. Did all that in preparation for moving to an agile tariff only to be refused as there are no smart meters as yet for domestic 3 phase, or at least not one that I can get hold of anyway. 
 

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, newhome said:

Simple enough

Have you read this thread and how hard it is to get simple suggestions done.

[zoothorn]

5 hours ago, newhome said:

Do you really want the room set to 22c? That would be way too warm for me in any room. I generally have bedrooms at 18 and living room where I’m sitting down all the time @ 20. Can you play around with the thermostat a bit? Turn the rads down 50% in the room with the thermostat and see if that makes a difference. If not turn the thermostat up one degree the next day and check again. I would be doing things like that initially as they are easily in your control to do so. Also at the same time each day make a note of your meter reading. Maybe do it at night too initially as this will give you accurate 12 hour usage figures. You can then determine how much electricity you are using with the different temperature settings that you are using to tweak the system. 

 

This is how I worked out the most optimal way to run my heating system as with an electric boiler it can be expensive, so I don’t just use it as plug in and leave, I physically control when the boiler comes on and switches off. Once I can move to a variable tariff I will be literally quids in. 
 

I know that you are mostly concerned about getting the rooms heated appropriately currently but do you have a smart meter, and what electric tariff are you on? 
 

 To answer your great post here far better newhome: i needed to reread it to fully get what you are suggesting, and now understand better. Ok 50% turn rad in thermostat room down.. i have two similar cheapo placcy dials each side on rad, with a -.......+ symbol on. Not trv's. So put one ( or both) approx halfway, is this turning the rads output to 50%? Forgive me if this is a daft q.

 

Now i get the idea of tweaking until a balance found, will take a heck of a time, and at the mo im struggling just to get a hot rad at 7.45.. so im almost given up im so exhausted. But will plough on and do what you suggest, i hope: Alot depends on tmrw Vaillant visit tho, to add summink to sensor. If next day this hasnt worked.. it has to be removed. And if i cant get a hot rad until 8 by turning system on 6.30 am.. it has to be removed, as this isnt conjusive for any user to live with ( and so why its on the market  at all, is utterly beyond me). Not looking great tbh.

 

Tarrif.. erm, eon green or something. Fixed 18 month, does that answer the q enough?

[Gone West]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

i have two similar cheapo placcy dials each side on rad, with a -.......+ symbol on. Not trv's. So put one ( or both) approx halfway, is this turning the rads output to 50%?

Those cheapo placcy dials are on one side Lockshield Valves and on the other Temperature Valves, which could be replaced with TRVs.. If the radiators have been balanced correctly then the Lockshield Valves should not be adjusted. They are there to balance the system so all the radiators warm up at the same time.

[zoothorn]

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

@zoothorn I think the huge uninsulated wall behind your bed has something to do with this. That is acting as a heat sink, downstairs the Insulation and air tightness is much better and I think this may be why the upper room is struggling. 
 

I would also do what @newhome has said and start by turning down all the radiators to 50% but the one in this room. 
 

Have you also had your wood burner lit..?? That will help with background heat and costs you very little to run. 

I thought of this wall Peter, but two things prevent me jumping at this as primary cause: the lower rooms' similar wall area is equivalent, and nipping in out of this workshop means airtight it is often not, also door down here doesnt seal perfect either.. but even so, actually even leaving door open for few mins, its still totally toasty. Also these old walls might be cold, but do act as a heat retainer fairly well, once heat got in that is, as per main big room downstairs: if i treat stove like ivor the engine throwing stacks of wood on, bend8ng inside bits par for course, and do ge5 enough huuuge heat going to combat the general huuuuge cold - this takes so much effort i often just hunker down in kitchen with fan heater in an evening- it stays in this big old room pretty well. Low ceiling helps alot mind you.

 

I'll tr6 anything before lining this back wall, anything, as it will ruin the room resorting to this.

[newhome]

Reading your post again I think you expect the ASHP to get to temperature by 8am if the ASHP switches on at 6.30? I don’t have an ASHP but I don’t think they work exactly like a boiler which is how it appears you are trying to use it. I would have thought that it needs to switch on earlier than 6.30? 

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

Those cheapo placcy dials are on one side Lockshield Valves and on the other Temperature Valves, which could be replaced with TRVs.. If the radiators have been balanced correctly then the Lockshield Valves should not be adjusted. They are there to balance the system so all the radiators warm up at the same time.

 So turning them to  half, isnt what newhome is suggest8ng? Im confused by these be8ng balanced.. might i have cocked up the balance by turning a couple of rads off, by turning one of these dials fully off? Thought if i turn both off, whilst rad hot, i might cause a pressure build up, & my roof might fly off.

 

 

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, newhome said:

Reading your post again I think you expect the ASHP to get to temperature by 8am if the ASHP switches on at 6.30? I don’t have an ASHP but I don’t think they work exactly like a boiler which is how it appears you are trying to use it. I would have thought that it needs to switch on earlier than 6.30? 

 Understand that newhome, but whatever system, noone wants rads on at night. Ive never known anyone to. So in order to not be spending huge outlay on it being on, whilst asleep, id have  thought 6.30 to go on is normal.

 

What i find is it 'idles' at a very low rad temp, consistantly, for exactly 90 mins, not gradually increacing... then springs into gear bang on 8 am. I just dont think i should be considering putting the ch on at 5 am (waking whoever might be in the spare room), in order for rads to start heating the room at 6.30, in order to have an hours' decent rads before getting up. Its just totaaly unconjusive t9 live like this, bot( the cost, and noise intrusion.

[Gone West]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

might i have cocked up the balance by turning a couple of rads off, by turning one of these dials fully off

Yes. Quite often the radiator nearest the heat source will have the Lockshield Valve open a very small amount and the radiator furthest away would have the Lockshield Valve fully open. It depends on the layout of the system.

[PeterW]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

Understand that newhome, but whatever system, noone wants rads on at night. Ive never known anyone to. So in order to not be spending huge outlay on it being on, whilst asleep, id have  thought 6.30 to go on is normal.

My heating runs overnight as it uses E7 cheap rate electricity. Previous gas TS was on 5am to 11pm so the heating could come on at 6, but that’s not unusual either. You have to stop thinking that this is like a “normal gas or oil heating system” and start to understand its capabilities and also its limitations. 

[dangti6]

Are you accustomed to that new carpet yet?

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

My heating runs overnight as it uses E7 cheap rate electricity. Previous gas TS was on 5am to 11pm so the heating could come on at 6, but that’s not unusual either. You have to stop thinking that this is like a “normal gas or oil heating system” and start to understand its capabilities and also its limitations. 

You mean its on storing electricity overnight, not you have radiators on overnight, surely?

 

Ive never known anyone, ever, have radiators on overnight. It doesnt make sense if under a warm duvet, is unpleasant unless sleeping without a duvet on at all, and is £wasteful, and bad for the polar bears too.

 

  The only ones whod have rads on overnight are crazies, stick insect thin issue folks, & people from lapland or something.

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, dangti6 said:

Are you accustomed to that new carpet yet?

yes.

[PeterW]

Just now, zoothorn said:

You mean its on storing electricity overnight, not you have radiators on overnight, surely?

 

Ive never known anyone, ever, have radiators on overnight. It doesnt make sense if under a warm duvet, is unpleasant unless sleeping without a duvet on at all, and is £wasteful, and bad for the polar bears too.

 

  The only ones whod have rads on overnight are crazies, stick insect thin issue folks, & people from lapland or something.

So the current UFH uses E7 via a heat pump to heat 12  tonnes of concrete and limestone flooring up that then acts as a huge storage heater during the day. Last one, heating could be on as late as 11 and back on at 5:30-6am. This isn’t unusual, and tbh it costs no more in CO2/Polar Bears to heat overnight than it does during the day.  

[Pocster]

Not being funny , and I can’t see it’s been mentioned but perhaps the rads need bleeding ???

[zoothorn]

16 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

Yes. Quite often the radiator nearest the heat source will have the Lockshield Valve open a very small amount and the radiator furthest away would have the Lockshield Valve fully open. It depends on the layout of the system.

right, i wasnt told this.. and seeing the +...- it suggests i can turn rads up or down here, or off. I was told by Vaillant i could turn some rads off, this was ok, even all but one i asked if in theory possible, yes, so im allowed to twiddle and turn at least one if these dials from one from max to min. Afaict.

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

So the current UFH uses E7 via a heat pump to heat 12  tonnes of concrete and limestone flooring up that then acts as a huge storage heater during the day. Last one, heating could be on as late as 11 and back on at 5:30-6am. This isn’t unusual, and tbh it costs no more in CO2/Polar Bears to heat overnight than it does during the day.  

Yes i get this, but ufh is different. Ufh works like a storage heater ad you say, a system with wall rads aint ufh.

 

If you are insinuating its not compatible with wall rads, only really ufh, Id have to agree hands down, as it seems the most plausible reason ive heard as to why its not working here well.

[zoothorn]

17 minutes ago, pocster said:

Not being funny , and I can’t see it’s been mentioned but perhaps the rads need bleeding ???

No you aren't, and no i dont think so: cool top of rads but warm btms = bleeding needed.

[Gone West]

15 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Ive never known anyone, ever, have radiators on overnight. It doesnt make sense if under a warm duvet, is unpleasant unless sleeping without a duvet on at all, and is £wasteful, and bad for the polar bears too.

 

  The only ones whod have rads on overnight are crazies, stick insect thin issue folks, & people from lapland or something.

You're thinking old type houses, which is understandable because your house is old. My house is a modern low energy house and is the same temperature all over 24/7. We use a 4 tog duvet and I'm quite happy sleeping on top of the duvet. We had the radiators on all the time in the previous bungalow and I am slim but no one has called me a stick insect although Wendy often says I'm crazy.

[Gone West]

15 hours ago, zoothorn said:

right, i wasnt told this.. and seeing the +...- it suggests i can turn rads up or down here, or off. I was told by Vaillant i could turn some rads off, this was ok, even all but one i asked if in theory possible, yes, so im allowed to twiddle and turn at least one if these dials from one from max to min. Afaict.

The Lockshield Valve used for balancing is on the outflow of the radiator and shouldn't be adjusted. The other valve can be adjusted and turned off if required.