Single Bottle LPG Gas Hob Connection

[JanetE]

Not sure if this is the correct place for this topic! 

 

Just fitting out the kitchen and we are having a 2 ring gas hob as a backup for our electric hob.  The cylinder will sit outside and we have to run the pipe through the wall.  I know we need to use 10mm copper and I assume the best option is to get a pipe spring so we can fit it without any solder bends. As the hob will use very little gas we see no point in having more than one cylinder. We shall make a box to cover it from the weather. So we need to get the correct connectors for this as well.  Terry has done quite a lot of plumbing but not with 10mm for LPG.

 

Would be grateful for your suggestions

[ProDave]

Use plastic coated 10mm copper, usually sold on a roll, already annealed so it's soft to bend. No spring needed, though I do have a hand held bender for it that I inherited from my dad to make a neat bend.

 

In the basis of fewer joints = fewer places it can leak, I have just one joint to connect to the hob and one to the regulator.

 

Use propane not butane, then no risk of freezing and no need to cover the cylinder. If it's a back up hob and not a big problem if it runs out then one cylinder is okay, but for a main hob I would always use 2 cylinders on an auto changeover regulator. You are most likely to use your gas hob when there is a power cut, would going outside to change the cylinder if it ran out be a nuisance then?

 

Even though the gas usage is small I would still use the big 47Kg cylinders simply because the gas is cheaper in the larger cylinders.
 

[jfb]

if there are any joints use compression not solder as LPG will eat away at the soldered join

 

[PeterW]

As it's a fixed installation it still needs a Gas Safe Registered engineer to fit it ...

 

You can get 10mm soft gas pipe from BES along with the fittings. 10mm should be fine for a short run to a twin ring hob however you may be just as quick with 15mm if it's not too far as the fittings such as bayonet connectors are easier to get in larger sizes.  

[Fallingditch]

On 31/12/2016 at 09:31, JanetE said:

we see no point in having more than one cylinder. We shall make a box to cover it from the weather

They don't really need protecting - in 90% of cases the whole setup sits outside. The propane cylinders are orange so you might want to box them is for aestehtic reasons.

 

As a long term LPG Hob user - good decision!

 

Even if you start to cook with it on a day to day basis, you will be really amazed how long a cylinder lasts. However they don't come with 'volume gauges'. What you do is to rock it from side to side to estimate how much is left. Thing is, when it gets down to (say) one or two inches, its very difficult to estimate how many days until you get to zero.  

 

So the technique is:

• get two full cylinders
• next year, when #1 runs out, switch to #2
• order replacement for #1
• when #2 runs out, switch to #1 and order another

All very obvious. Actually, you dont even need a changeover valve. Its a two minute job to change them over when it runs out. (And the risk of an auto changeover is that it changes over without you realising it, and first thing you know is that they are both empty).

 

If you have the space, go for 47kg cylinders.

 

One other thing is that I have always used miele hobs. Lot of LPG used on the continent, so conversion kits available as standard. And what you really want to be sure of is that you have a small ring and you can turn it right down without the flame going out - quality german brands on ebay shouldn't give you an issue.

 

UPDATE: my 'quality german hob' actually requires an electrical supply to operate (flame failure detection, I believe) so that that would certainly be an issue for @JanetE

 

BTW when I first started using LPG, they gave the cylinders away to new cusomers. Don't know if that still the case.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Fallingditch
to meet OP requirements

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, Fallingditch said:

However they don't come with 'volume gauges'. What you do is to rock it from side to side to estimate how much is left. Thing is, when it gets down to (say) one or two inches, its very difficult to estimate how many days until you get to zero.  

 

You can get multipurpose connectors now with the fail safe and a gauge built in for propane cylinders 

 

 https://www.bes.co.uk/product/62a~LPG~958~-Multi-Purpose-Safety-Fitting.html

[dogman]

Has anyone used the "gastite" pipe. I was going to run a length under the slab in to the kitchen for the plumber to fit later. Not sure if it has to be ducted but i was going thinking it would be best.

http://www.gastite.co.uk/pdf/installation_guide.pdf

 

[Nickfromwales]

@JanetE

Go for the plastic coated soft copper and endeavour to be 'joint free'. Remember that you'll have to remove the coating to get a bending machine to fit the radius . Re-cover with yellow electrical ( pvc ) tape, no probs there. 

You can mount the LPG bottled remotely, e.g. behind / alongside an outbuilding, or right at the rearmost quarter where they won't be seen. They don't have to be against the house, and fwiw, I'd prefer them well away from the skin of my TF house in case of a leak. 

Go for the best of all options :-

1) Fit small bottles. Lower line of sight for the 'cover' as you haven't got one single 5' bottle to try and hide. 

 

2) Fit an auto-changeover arrangement with 2x small bottles. No running around in the rain with a spanner whilst the sprouts go cold. 

 

3) You won't need to buy a gauge as you'll see the auto changeover indicator has 'flipped' and then just change the empty at your convenience as you'll know it's spent. 

 

4) Soldering LPG is permissible ( quick google finds the regs ) in a fixed installation. Do not have a compression fitting where it's not accessible or in a void of any kind. 

 

You may end up using the gas hob more than you expect as, personally, I dislike cooking on electric, so think twice about a single bottle arrangement . 

[Alexphd1]

Yeah gastite pipe is good. We run one in our slab to the island. You don't need to sleeve it. Keep a eye on eBay as you often get off cuts but the fittings are very expensive. 

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

As it's a fixed installation it still needs a Gas Safe Registered engineer to fit it ...

 

You can get 10mm soft gas pipe from BES along with the fittings. 10mm should be fine for a short run to a twin ring hob however you may be just as quick with 15mm if it's not too far as the fittings such as bayonet connectors are easier to get in larger sizes. 

Contrary to popular belief, it is still legal to DIY your OWN gas work, as long as you are competent. where it would become an ofence, is if someone not gas safe registered started doing work for other people.
 

[PeterW]

13 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Contrary to popular belief, it is still legal to DIY your OWN gas work, as long as you are competent. where it would become an ofence, is if someone not gas safe registered started doing work for other people.
 

 

Agree however I've never seen a BCO sign off gas work on a new house without the GSR certified installer ticket. 

 

I do my own as I have an old ACOPS ticket but I refuse to do for anyone else ... 

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

Agree however I've never seen a BCO sign off gas work on a new house without the GSR certified installer ticket.

 

I do my own as I have an old ACOPS ticket but I refuse to do for anyone else ...

True.

 

My preseent house, 13 years ago, they didn't ask for any certification. But this time I am minded to fit a temporary electric hob until after completion.....
 

[PeterW]

3 hours ago, Alexphd1 said:

Yeah gastite pipe is good. We run one in our slab to the island. You don't need to sleeve it. Keep a eye on eBay as you often get off cuts but the fittings are very expensive. 

 

 

Did your plumber advise it was OK to bury in the concrete as is..?

[Alexphd1]

I'm the plumber (that's going to come back to haunt me)??? we left a long tail to get up behind the kitchen units to upstairs where we will have a compression fitting into copper pipe. As long as it's one length ie no fittings it's fine in concrete, if you need fittings in the concrete then it gets complicated. Remember it's compression fittings on to the gastite pipe and they need to be accessible at a later date. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Alexphd1

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, JanetE said:

Just fitting out the kitchen and we are having a 2 ring gas hob as a backup for our electric hob.

Would it not be easier and cheaper to have a back up generator to run the hob (I assume an induction one) from (200 quid and a crossover switch).

I have a spare camping stove, have only needed to use it once in 12 years during one 4 hour power cut.

[PeterW]

20 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

I'm the plumber (that's going to come back to haunt me)??? we left a long tail to get up behind the kitchen units to upstairs where we will have a compression fitting into copper pipe. As long as it's one length ie no fittings it's fine in concrete, if you need fittings in the concrete then it gets complicated. Remember it's compression fittings on to the gastite pipe and they need to be accessible at a later date. 

 

So if you read the U.K. Version of that it says you're ok buried in concrete, the US version says you can't ....! How bizarre....!

 

Plastics Express do kits with 5/10/15m of pipe and two fittings from about £60

[Alexphd1]

 I can't remember the last power cut we had so for having a gas hob for the back up argument doesn't really stack up but I likea the option to cook by gas. Although it's just a single gas wok burner we will mainly cook by electric induction. 

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

Contrary to popular belief, it is still legal to DIY your OWN gas work, as long as you are competent. where it would become an ofence, is if someone not gas safe registered started doing work for other people.
 

I hate that loophole. 

If you are ok to do your own gas work, then, should you not, be the only person whom resides there?

[Nickfromwales]

 

Much as I've done loads of gas work, it's all been either under 'supervision' or commissioned and signed of by a GSR fitter. 

I don't think I could live with the consequences of a fatality caused by my own hand, even worse if it's was one of my own family who died whilst I wasn't at home. 

There is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE not to get a GSR fitter to test and commission pipework you've pulled point to point. None whatsoever other than just being too tight or failing to see the infinite value in doing so. 

1) Sleep at night knowing your installation is safe. 

2) Same for your family. 

3) You can't get a completion certificate on a gas install unless done as above. Fitting it yourself afterwards is just a mind-numbingly bad idea. 

4) Good luck claiming on your insurance if said, non-registered work, causes a fire or total loss of your home. You won't get a penny. 

 

How anyone one can see value in not paying for this to be done properly is beyond my comprehension. 

[Nickfromwales]

54 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

 I can't remember the last power cut we had so for having a gas hob for the back up argument doesn't really stack up but I likea the option to cook by gas. Although it's just a single gas wok burner we will mainly cook by electric induction. 

Agreed. Think of all the takeaway food you could order if you didn't spend £100's fitting the 'doomsday' cooker. 

The takeaways would cover you during the powercut btw, and you ring them off your mobile. 

Simples!

[Simplysimon]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

Contrary to popular belief, it is still legal to DIY your OWN gas work, as long as you are competent.
 

 the proof of competency is.......

simon

[Nickfromwales]

25 minutes ago, Simplysimon said:

 the proof of competency is.......

 

You wake up in the morning and everyone is alive for another day, by luck rather than good judgment. . 

[TerryE]

I think that its basically the same argument as with the electrics.  I did all of ours (as well as the plumbing, gas included) in our current house and have slept comfortably for 30 years or thereabouts.  We've got more than enough to do will all of the other second fix, without getting into pissing competitions with the BInsp, so if my main building contractor's recommended gas installer gives me a reasonable price, then I will go with this.

[Nickfromwales]

No building control recognition and subsequent registration of your new gas installation = no insurance. Put a reasonable price on that ?

30 years ago things were different, but in 2017 what advice should we suggest here, given our wide viewing audience, some of whom only read what's written here. ?

30 years ago all you needed on a construction site were Teflon coated Y-fronts and some sunblock. A bit different today where you need a high vis to fill your trolley in b&q. 

Lets advise according to 2016/17, and do it with the same passion, concern and conviction 'we' display when discussing say air tightness and insulation levels. . 

And yes, I'm quite passionate about this subject 

[Alexphd1]

Wow nick.... that looks straight out of corgi's (sorry gas safes ) bamf pr. This is a VERY  grey area. To undertake gas work you have to be a competent, this opens up a hell of a lot of grey.... when I was renewing my corgi there was a group of companies that refused to pay their subscription to corgi but were "competent" ie passed their exams.... I don't know how it ended..... but next year I paid lots of money to gas safe..... who let's be honest .... wore a bigger balaclava than corgi.    FOR THE RECORD GET THE APPROPRIATE GAS SAFE SIGNATURE ! Few that's me clear (new year's resolution stay off internet after a few drams..... )

Edited January 1, 2017 by Alexphd1