SteamyTea Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 From an acedemic viewpoint, would building control just check the paperwork and accept it, or would they deem it unacceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 20 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: From an acedemic viewpoint, would building control just check the paperwork and accept it, or would they deem it unacceptable? In all probability they would just accept the paperwork, unless the building inspector happened to be familiar with good practice WRG to bottled LPG installations, which isn't very likely, I suspect. My experience was that there wasn't a great deal of detailed inspection done during any of our inspections. It seemed to me that the building inspector was more concerned with getting a feel for the competence of the people doing the work whenever he called. Only two things were actually checked during our build, and they were the drain pressure test and the compliance with Part M for the doors and entrance through to the downstairs WC. The rest was making sure all the bits of paper were on file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 2 hours ago, JSHarris said: I know there's a very good argument for saying that he/she should have been familiar with the need to use proper hoses, secure the cylinders from being knocked over, etc, but if he/she hadn't done a bottled LPG installation at all, or for some years, then this could just be down to unfamiliarity with bottled LPG. NOPE. If you aren't up to speed with regs, equipment and it's installation criteria, YOU DONT TOUCH IT. Ignorance or lack of experience is nonsense. A GSR fitter will have to specifically and separately sit the LPG section of his / her qualifications so they'll have ZERO gap in their knowledge. That is renewed every 5 years so, sorry J, that's not a reason at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 21 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: NOPE. If you aren't up to speed with regs, equipment and it's installation criteria, YOU DONT TOUCH IT. Ignorance or lack of experience is nonsense. A GSR fitter will have to specifically and separately sit the LPG section of his / her qualifications so they'll have ZERO gap in their knowledge. That is renewed every 5 years so, sorry J, that's not a reason at all. I agree, but was just putting forward a possible reason why someone would do work like this that's non-compliant. They are putting themselves in the firing line in terms of liability, as I understand the law around working with gas installations, not to mention possibly losing their livelihood by having their gas safe registration withdrawn. Is it possible to be gas safe registered and not hold an LPG ticket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Is it possible to be gas safe registered and not hold an LPG ticket? Yes... GSR is split into commercial, domestic, NatGas, LPG and any combination of the above ..! It then gets split on boilers and gas appliances along with other different classes and each has its own separate training and certificates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 On 21/02/2017 at 13:45, PeterW said: Yes... GSR is split into commercial, domestic, NatGas, LPG and any combination of the above ..! It then gets split on boilers and gas appliances along with other different classes and each has its own separate training and certificates. +1 I know a lot of boys who are GSR'd and do fires and cookers without the relvant tickets. This can't be done on your vanilla GSR and you have to either do your fires and cookers at the same time, or go back later and do it as a bolt-on. NOTE : Always ask to see your GSR'd fitters card. On the reverse is all the different types of equipment / classes of what their entitled / qualified to work on or install. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Thanks both, I was under the misapprehension that if you used a gas safe registered trades person then that was all that was needed. I bet it's not that commonly known by potential customers that there are all the various categories, and I doubt that many check. I use a local chap (literally local, as in four doors away from me!) to service our combi every year (having suffered at the hands of the incompetent installers who fitted it - another story, about a dozen call outs to fix the thing in the first year) and I've never thought to ask to see what ticket he has. He used to be CORGI registered, and had that logo on his van when we first used him (to sort out the installation problems that the big installer couldn't fix) and when that changed to gas safe I never bothered to check again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 GSR expires every 5 years also . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Someone I used to know had a gas fired hot air system in her house. She used the same guy for years to service it annually. Then she had a fire (probably dust in ducts). As the Fire Service attended they did an investigation. Found out the guy was not qualified to do even a service (think he may have been commercial only, I can't really remember). Just another good reason to avoid gas if you are self building/DIYing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I've been having the gas/no gas argument for a while now ..! It was made more difficult that we only have to pay £295 for the connection as there is a 63mm sub main in the neighbours garden that they knew nothing about ..! Tempted to put it in just so it's there and in place if I decide to install a gas boiler at a later date. Easy to run a pair of redundant 22mm pipes in the ceiling to the garage on a just in case basis however I'm thinking it just adds one more thing to the list .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Can you easily get a duct in now? Change of £300 notes isn't to be sniffed at. It's certainly worth a second, or third thought. Btw, it's a lot more than running 2 pipes . Blow off, condensate, cold fill and associated cabling. You can only future-proof so much mate. Maybe toss a coin and let the queen decide. ? ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 46 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Can you easily get a duct in now? Change of £300 notes isn't to be sniffed at. It's certainly worth a second, or third thought. Btw, it's a lot more than running 2 pipes . Blow off, condensate, cold fill and associated cabling. You can only future-proof so much mate. Maybe toss a coin and let the queen decide. ? ?? Now then..... @Nickfromwales you should know I'd thought of that lot ! Fill/pressure loop will be the same as the ASHP, cables would be in (but would use wireless anyway) and condensate is straight out into the soakaway outside.... And tbh if I put the gas meter in SWMBOAAT will just want a gas hob and I think we are finally winning the induction argument so don't open that pandoras box again !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 ??? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Regarding the isolating lever.. It looks like you may only need a quarter turn lever if there is more than one cylinder... http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/regulation/9/made Emergency controls (5) This regulation shall not apply where gas is supplied in a refillable cylinder except where two or more cylinders are connected by means of an automatic change-over device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 PS That jubilee clip just looks plain wrong to me but I'm not a gas engineer. Is it rust proof? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/regulation/7/made Protection against damage (3) No person shall install a gas fitting in a position where it is likely to be exposed to any substance which may corrode gas fittings unless the fitting is constructed of materials which are inherently resistant to being so corroded or it is suitably protected against being so corroded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Guys, as I said before: if you want to find who is correctly certificated then you can check with the Gas Safe registry by class and postcode. As to the supposed illegality of jubilee clips, as I said these came from a reputable dealer, and perhaps one of you better tell Calor that they are selling the same "illegal" fitting. Maybe this is why you should trust the registered professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 38 minutes ago, TerryE said: sed illegality of jubilee clips, as I said these came from a reputable dealer, and perhaps one of you better tell Calor that they are selling the same "illegal" fitting. Maybe this is why you should trust the registered professional. I think the issue here is that there are gas jubilee clips and ordinary ones..! Gas ones have a smooth internal surface and the "worm" compresses a slotted band over the top of the inner band - they don't cut into the pipe. Using a "standard" hose clip you can damage the hose and that's where the issue lies. I've checked with my pet gas engineer who has all the above LPG tickets and he said that the "guidance" is for temporary or portable installations then he would use a gas hose safe worm drive, for a house installation where it is permanent he would use an eared clip. He said the big issue is proper gas worm clips are 3 times the price of ordinary ones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, TerryE said: Guys, as I said before: if you want to find who is correctly certificated then you can check with the Gas Safe registry by class and postcode. As to the supposed illegality of jubilee clips, as I said these came from a reputable dealer, and perhaps one of you better tell Calor that they are selling the same "illegal" fitting. Maybe this is why you should trust the registered professional. I think @Temp's point is a valid one. Stainless clips are easily sought, and as Peter says, there are correct and incorrect types. This isn't at you terry, this is about ensuring you and jan have a safe and reliable installation, hence you posting it accordingly for comment / approval. . Is the pipe sleeved where it goes through the wall ? Apologies if you've already answered that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Another point about the "gas jubilee clips" they are for LOW PRSSURE hose. If you have an auto changeover system it is normally high pressure hoses, that are normally bought ready made. This is something like what I will use, regulator, automatic changeover, over prerssure shut off, emergency isolator, pressure test point and ready made hoses all in onne complete kit. https://www.bes.co.uk/700h-two-pack-automatic-changeover-kit-with-opso-en-13786 What could be simpler, screw it to the wall and connect the gas pipe to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, ProDave said: Another pint about the "gas jubilee clips" they are for LOW PRSSURE hose. If you have an auto changeover system it is normally high pressure hoses, that are normally bought ready made. This is something like what I will use, regulator, automatic changeover, over prerssure shut off, emergency isolator, pressure test point and ready made hoses all in onne complete kit. https://www.bes.co.uk/700h-two-pack-automatic-changeover-kit-with-opso-en-13786 What could be simpler, screw it to the wall and connect the gas pipe to it. That's what we had for the caravan - as recommended by you I believe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 All for £40. ? Cheaper than shoplifting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 @TerryE Dont you have a hideehole where you could remotely mount the cylinder ? Or is it out of sight where it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 6 hours ago, PeterW said: I think the issue here is that there are gas jubilee clips and ordinary ones..! Gas ones have a smooth internal surface and the "worm" compresses a slotted band over the top of the inner band - they don't cut into the pipe. Using a "standard" hose clip you can damage the hose and that's where the issue lies. Maybe so, but for the 3rd or f4th time, I will say: these jubilee clips aren't some generic ones: we bought these as part of an installation kit from a reputable Gas supplier. 4 hours ago, Bitpipe said: If you have an auto changeover system it is normally high pressure hoses I agree that all sorts of comments are relevant to auto changover set-up, but having now read through the guidelines, LPG configurations are divided into three categories: Cylinder installations -- that is where you have a static storage vessel which is typically refilled on-site from a suppliers LPG tanker Multiple bottle installations Single bottle installations. The best practice for these three is different. Jan and I decided from the outset that we wanted a single bottle installation. And that's what we have. IMO, it doesn't make sense to say: I would have had a multiple bottle installation and then criticise the installation for not following multiple bottle best practice. There's a lot of good advice here but maybe we should somehow tag the various points as relating to either single bottle or multiple bottle installation and keep the two quite separate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 From the wider audience POV, this is a very informative exchange . Certainly separates what the difference is between simple 'good practice' and the actual regulatory requirements, with the latter, essential criteria, now well highlighted. 11 hours ago, TerryE said: .......having now read through the guidelines, LPG configurations are divided into three categories: Cylinder installations -- that is where you have a static storage vessel which is typically refilled on-site from a suppliers LPG tanker Multiple bottle installations Single bottle installations. The best practice for these three is different I think that statement gives total clarity to the thread, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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