harry_angel Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Due to a second property in London being badly down valued prior to re-mortgaging and in the light of Brexit (I dread to think what they'd value it right now, mid corona), I am going to be short about £60k to construct an 147m2, 4 bed in place of 2 existing, crumbling outbuildings (albeit said outbuildings have electricity and water already). With this squeeze on budget, I am going to need to cut every corner going (within reason) to get this over the line. Throw in the fact that this is my first build of any description, and it's going to be "interesting" times! From other threads, it appears that Closed Panel Timber Frame as opposed to SIPS may offer the best shot at delivering a combo of quality and real value. Appreciate that this is a bit of a how-long's-a-piece-of-string Q, but by getting properly creative, what's the least you'd back yourself to bring this 147m2 structure in for, and how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Very few of us get under £1000 per square metre, and that usually involves doing a LOT of the work yourself. That is what we are aiming for, but along the way the work I have done myself would have cost at least £30K if I had been paying someone else to do it. What do you have in your revised budget, and how much can you do? Obvious easy savings are budget simple kitchen and bathroom that you can always replace later on. Likewise with floor coverings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Location ..? Budget..?? Access..??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_angel Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, ProDave said: Very few of us get under £1000 per square metre, and that usually involves doing a LOT of the work yourself. That is what we are aiming for, but along the way the work I have done myself would have cost at least £30K if I had been paying someone else to do it. What do you have in your revised budget, and how much can you do? Obvious easy savings are budget simple kitchen and bathroom that you can always replace later on. Likewise with floor coverings. Dave, many thanks. As you are a self-builder in the highlands with fully 17,000 BH posts.... ...I believe you! In the light of that, this is going to be very tough. Location: Surrey Budget: £100k for the build to habitable point (doesn't include kitchen, bathroom but does incl light fittings, boiler etc) Access: sorry pls clarify. Plot is semi rural. Existing outbuildings have electricity and water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Be prepared to do lots of the work yourself - check out the Walter Segal method, build your own timber panels or learn to lay blocks. Go for the open-plan industrial look: ditch everything other than structural & bathrooms walls, cut out all unnecessary surface finishings and stick with OSB / fair faced blockwork, keep ducts and pipes exposed... You might also be able to get some tips from the BBC2 programme The House That £100k Built - not on air at the moment, but you may be able to track something down. Don't remember if anyone built anything close to 147m² though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I don't know how to break this to you, but 147 square metre house, in surrey, for £100K, not a hope in hell. Our house is a similar size and will be in the region of £150K when finished. The only glimmer of hope I can offer is to try your best and be inventive. We were faced with a similar position with lack of funds and in our case a lack of appetite to borrow. We are 5 years into a slow build now, living in the house but it is not finished. I have had some extra capital from 2 unexpected sources, one was a small inheritance, and the other was upon turning 55 years old taking the 25% tax free lump out of a pension. Otherwise it has been a slow "build as we earn" process. the final completion should come soon (CV delays accepted) by claiming our VAT refund which should give close to enough to finish the build a bit quicker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 We built using a closed panel timber frame system. Ignoring the plot-related costs (which were higher than average for us) the house build came in at about £1,380/m² at 2013 to 2018 prices, with me doing almost all the internal fit out (joinery, kitchen, bathrooms etc), the plumbing, heating and ventilation system work. Took a long time, as working on your own can be very slow going at times. The foundation and insulated frame cost, including doors and windows, external cladding and roofing and guttering, came to about £650/m² at 2013/14 prices. From that point onwards I did much of the work, with just an electrician for two weeks, plasterboard and plasterers for two weeks, a floor tiler for two days and a joiner to hang the internal doors and fit the stairs for about a week. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I'm about £100K short of what I would really like to build and so am planning to do things in two stages: minimum liveable, with an extension later, when hopefully I'll be in a better financial position. Incidentally 'habitable' means you have to have the kitchen and bathroom installed, and a few other things before you can mortgage, if that's one way you could raise more cash. Alternatively jig the layout so that you could have a self contained part for a lodger to raise cash? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 as @ProDave has alluded to above if you want to build for near to £1000/m2 (especially in the south of England) then it takes time. one of either quality or speed of build will have to give and from reading his blog it is definitely not quality that has suffered! remember the time, quality, cost triangle. you can only have 2 of those choices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, harry_angel said: Location: Surrey Budget: £100k for the build to habitable point (doesn't include kitchen, bathroom but does incl light fittings, boiler etc) Access: sorry pls clarify. Plot is semi rural. Existing outbuildings have electricity and water OK .. so £100k is going to be tight, and that’s without knowing the design either. How practical are you..? And what can you and family/significant others do to help..? First thing is do you really need 4 bedrooms ..?? Can you get away with 2..? Then split when funds allow ..? Do you have planning permission and what for ..? Does it lend itself to a house of two halves.?? Exterior skin is going to cost money, can you go for block and render ... and render when you have the money ..? If you have plans then post them up - let’s see what you are up against. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_angel Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 Thanks all. These are the draft plans. Note these are a bit of a work in progress, we are hopeful of securing the extra width to turn what is described as the lounge, in to 2 bedrooms. I am not particularly practical which is why I'm feeling the heat to select the right build method. I feel like if I can get most of the way there (ie. built, minus kitchen and bathroom and fixtures and fittings) for around £100k, then I can reasonably swiftly cashflow the rest. But from the above, this feels seriously unlikely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 The obvious thing to do with that is build it as a bungalow first. Build the roof with attic trusses properly specified for the rooms in the roof later and cut the joists ready for the stairwell opening, then close in the stairwell opening for now. Don't fit the upstairs windows except those in the gables. Get it up and functioning as a 1 bedroom bungalow using the living room as the bedroom. You then install the stairs and do the loft later when you can afford it. If you are crafty, you get it signed off as a 1 bedroom bungalow and get the council tax valued on that. The council tax would not normally get re valued when you "extend" it into the loft. That makes it a roughly 70 square metre bungalow and you stand a fighting chance if you are careful of doing that for £100K 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_angel Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 Thanks @ProDave . Great idea. Re excavations and foundations on this, what would you back yourself to bring this in for? Not up to damp proof course, just foundations dug and poured...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFDIY Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I'm in the middle of 125m² extension, footprint is 75m² so broadly comparable. I was quoted £26k to get foundations in, brickwork built up to DPC, and sub floor slab poured. I did it myself in two months around a full time job and for less than £6k, it is not my trade but if you want something you can make it happen. Enthusiasm has wained somewhat since...... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_angel Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 Wow, amazing effort @JFDIY ! I'm all game for upskilling but I know my limitations and I would not back myself not to screw that up royally! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 38 minutes ago, ProDave said: The obvious thing to do with that is build it as a bungalow first. Build the roof with attic trusses properly specified for the rooms in the roof later and cut the joists ready for the stairwell opening, then close in the stairwell opening for now. Don't fit the upstairs windows except those in the gables. Get it up and functioning as a 1 bedroom bungalow using the living room as the bedroom. You then install the stairs and do the loft later when you can afford it. If you are crafty, you get it signed off as a 1 bedroom bungalow and get the council tax valued on that. The council tax would not normally get re valued when you "extend" it into the loft. That makes it a roughly 70 square metre bungalow and you stand a fighting chance if you are careful of doing that for £100K Great idea! 3 years ago I built a 2 bedroom 71sqM bungalow for £96k. Fully completed inc UFH and ceramic tiled floors 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 hours ago, harry_angel said: Due to a second property in London being badly down valued prior to re-mortgaging and in the light of Brexit (I dread to think what they'd value it right now, mid corona), I am going to be short about £60k to construct an 147m2, 4 bed in place of 2 existing, crumbling outbuildings (albeit said outbuildings have electricity and water already). With this squeeze on budget, I am going to need to cut every corner going (within reason) to get this over the line. Throw in the fact that this is my first build of any description, and it's going to be "interesting" times! From other threads, it appears that Closed Panel Timber Frame as opposed to SIPS may offer the best shot at delivering a combo of quality and real value. Appreciate that this is a bit of a how-long's-a-piece-of-string Q, but by getting properly creative, what's the least you'd back yourself to bring this 147m2 structure in for, and how? We came in at £830m2 On wry good spec 283m2 two story traditional build As already pointed out you will need to do a lot yourself to keep under a £1000 m2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 My foundations came in at £10K for a similar sized house. BUT I had my own digger at the time. I stripped the site and dug the trenches. The builders just poured the concrete (strip foundations) and built the blockwork up to damp course for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_angel Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 Cheers @ProDave Vague, day-dreaming temptation to just buy this and be done with it! https://www.quick-garden.co.uk/insulated-log-cabin-house-bordeaux-6m-x-11m-20x36-ft-twin-skin.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, harry_angel said: Cheers @ProDave Vague, day-dreaming temptation to just buy this and be done with it! https://www.quick-garden.co.uk/insulated-log-cabin-house-bordeaux-6m-x-11m-20x36-ft-twin-skin.html I am struggling to understand where you can legally erect that. It's 2 storey so that immediately means it can't possibly come under the portable building / caravan building regs exemption (which in any event would mean building it on a base capable of being lifted by a crane) The insulation values mean it will fall a long way short of meeting building regs for a house, and will probably fail BR for a whole host of other reasons. That only leaves a non habitable garden outbuilding which would still need building regs due to it's size but not so stringent as a house. If you have the space have you considered the usual option of a static caravan, giving you temporary accommodation to build the house slowly as you can afford it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) Good luck. I have quite a few money saving ideas below. TBH most people overspend in here for nice finishes, nice specs etc and could build cheaper if they wanted to. However, in saying all that I just don't think you can get close to this budget in Surrey. In saying that kitchens and bathrooms are costly, so you can probably get down to below £1000 a square metre ex these especially doing some work yourself. A lot will depend on the groundwork/foundation costs. It looks like a relatively simple design which is good. The main savings are reducing the spec and doing stuff yourself. Spec - So cheap PVC double glazing, plain doors, white plastic sockets, bog standard skirting, cheap guttering, soffits, concrete tiles etc. You could use an electric boiler. Now these are expensive to run but you won't need a gas supply and this could save £2-3000 including installing the boiler. The other area to save money is hard floors, tiles etc. These are nice but expensive, simple OSB floors and carpets/lino which you can always upgrade in the future. Pendant lights instead of downlights, you could probably lose around £1000 in light fittings that way. The two simplest jobs are probably putting in insulation and painting, painting yourself would probably save £3000ish. A big saving would probably be to go open panel and put the insulation into the walls yourself. As I understand it from the quotes people get on timber frames, they charge quite a lot to add the insulation. However, this is perhaps compromising on the spec. Can the dormer wall not be insulated with rock wool rather than PIR, this is massively cheaper. Or actually, why not insulate with rock wool between the rafters then the doors to the eaves won't need to be insulated. There could be issues with condensation that have to be considered here. Again you could install this insulation yourself. As the house has a lot of roof, insulating this with a lot of roockwool will be cheap yet keep the insulation standard of the whole house up. I reckon that you might save around £15,000 not doing upstairs, but you'd have to pay VAT when you do it later and it would be more expensive and disruptive. I think though if £100k is really the budget, building to the minimum spec you might just get the building plus downstairs fit out for £100k. Edited March 31, 2020 by AliG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Ok so if that is brick and block, concrete tiles and nothing high end then I think you can get there for £100k but it will be tight. First thing you need to do is get an estimator to run the plans and give you the worst case number. Then start to scrub it. From that, start looking for trades. You cannot afford a main contractor as their margin will be 12-15% and that’s lost cost. Start looking for bricklayers, ground workers and joiners now, check for recommendations if possible and steer clear of the TrustaCheckmyRoofer type sites. How close to the site do you live ..? You’ll need to be on site every day, even if it’s only from 6-8pm to tidy up, sweep up and spot the problems. You’ll need to have a good grasp of google to buy at the best price, and make friends with your local builders merchant. As @AliG says, start looking all electric and an ASHP and UFH may be your friend. Upstairs will need Rads, even if it’s just to make sure it’s heated and you don’t have the money for OTT insulation. And above all, you’re going to need a lot of stamina and a sense of humour ..!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_angel Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 Cheers again guys. This is the quote we are looking to chop away at...any big red flags there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundtuit Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Demolition sounds expensive for crumbling outbuildings; I'd strip it out of the quote and get it priced separately, especially if there are any materials worth salvaging (old bricks, tiles?). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFDIY Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 ^ especially when there's a further £1200 for grubbing out foundations. If you have time demolition is the easy part. Plumbing and heating are quoted separately and amount to £12k. If using plastic pipe and fittings that could be nearly half that surely. Does it include any bathroom fittings? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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