pro's & cons of different ICF systems

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, jack said:

 

Gawd dad, you're so embarrassing.

 

I'll be in my room.

 

A good shepherd watches over his flock. 

Now flock off. ✌️️??

[najem-icf]

*sigh*

 

See attached BBA for Cavity Wall Full Fill.

 

Technical Specification
1 Description
Celotex CF5000 PIR Insulation for Full Fill Cavity Walls comprises foil-faced rigid polyisocyanurate (PIR) foam board with 
aluminium foil-facings with the nominal characteristics given in Table 1 of this Certificate.

cavity-wall-full-fill_bba-certificate_mar17.pdf

[Jeremy Harris]

9 minutes ago, najem-icf said:

*sigh*

 

See attached BBA for Cavity Wall Full Fill.

 

Technical Specification
1 Description
Celotex CF5000 PIR Insulation for Full Fill Cavity Walls comprises foil-faced rigid polyisocyanurate (PIR) foam board with 
aluminium foil-facings with the nominal characteristics given in Table 1 of this Certificate.

cavity-wall-full-fill_bba-certificate_mar17.pdf

 

As we all know, following the detailed analysis of the way BBA certificates are issued, after the Grenfell Tower tragedy, often with no testing or analysis at all, just a "desk top study", you cannot trust what's in the BBA cert when it comes to defining the spec of the material, or even it's performance.

 

I can assure you, beyond any doubt, that the 50mm Celotex PIR (not sure of the exact spec, it's left overs from a sheet I bought to insulate under our borehole cover) that at least some Celotex PIR does not have aluminium foil on the surface, but has what seems to be a silver painted or coated paper, that tears off in fibre layers, just like paper.

 

I'll take some photos as soon as possible, and will also try some basic chemical analysis y to see how it reacts, simply to find out one way or the other what the coating really is.  I've got a range of reagents here, and although I no longer have easy access to a lab to do a proper qualitative analysis, I should be able to do a few simple tests to see what happens when the coating is exposed to strong alkali or acid reagents.

Edited September 15, 2017 by JSHarris

[Nickfromwales]

@najem-icf

Ill just give you a little nudge here

All the members here will take nothing as a given, and usually with merit. The feedback you get here will always be impartial, and given freely, and a lot of it is from people who have bought, and installed such products, for better or for worse, and are willing to share their findings with the members and guests who frequent here, for their benefit. 

Its not a battle, it's a constructive volley everyone benefits from, so take the replies with a pinch, and take any criticism or indifferences as constructive only, as I assure you they're meant to be . 

Most folk here will tell you how it is, not how they think it is, ( apart from me where I usually only open my mouth to change feet  ). 

Stay tuned, it's about to get interesting

 

[najem-icf]

16 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

I've got a range of reagents here, and although I no longer have easy access to a lab to do a proper qualitative analysis, I should be able to do a few simple tests to see what happens when the coating is exposed to strong alkali or acid reagents.

That's fair enough. I must admit I have taken the BBA and the manufacturers word on the composition of the products.  Hopefully your testing can confirm otherwise and give us all invaluable knowledge.

 

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

@najem-icf

Ill just give you a little nudge here

All the members here will take nothing as a given, and usually with merit. The feedback you get here will always be impartial, and given freely, and a lot of it is from people who have bought, and installed such products, for better or for worse, and are willing to share their findings with the members and guests who frequent here, for their benefit. 

I do appreciate you guidance. I guess when you believe your views to be well informed and without doubt correct, there is a tendency to become a little too passionate and precious about things.

 

You are right - stuff just got real! Looking forward to @JSHarris findings...

[Nickfromwales]

[Declan52]

I have a full bale of 50mm  pir sitting in my shed if you need me to cut some up and take some pics.

[Jeremy Harris]

@najem-icf. A bit of research on the appalling way that BBA certificates were issued for cladding materials would be useful.  Some of of the polyethylene core aluminium cladding was certified on the basis of a desk top study assumed that it had the same flammability characteristics as ceramic tile, for example.  It was never actually tested for fire resistance.

 

To say the BBA certification system is unreliable and untrustworthy, is an understatement.  Ever since the great multifoil insulation farce, I've assumed that the system was less than reliable.  Since the revelations from Grenfell Tower, I'm convinced that you cannot trust any BBA certificate at all.

Edited September 15, 2017 by JSHarris

[Nickfromwales]

Especially when you compare the cost of thicker aluminium layers to very very thin 'aluminium' layers . 

[ADLIan]

Interesting to see latest Celotex issue with fire performance and testing - see announcement on home page of website.

 

ian

[Triassic]

I'm interested in using ICF for my basement, does anyone have any cost analysis of the various ICF products compared with traditional shuttering (steel and/or timber)? Which method is the most cost effective?

[Jeremy Harris]

3 hours ago, ADLIan said:

Interesting to see latest Celotex issue with fire performance and testing - see announcement on home page of website.

 

ian

 

 

Well spotted.  Having read the test results (thanks to @Temp for updating those on the thread running about this issue) as they came out, I will admit to being puzzled by some of the apparent anomalies.  Clearly Celotex are too, having taken the steps they have. This is the brief statement from Celotex (there is more detail on their site, too):

 

Quote

Celotex announcement – 5000 Class 0 testing
1st September 2017

After careful consideration, we have taken the decision to temporarily suspend supply of some of our 5000 product range in light of a recent and unexpected test result. This relates to Celotex FR5000, Celotex CG5000, Celotex CF5000 and Celotex SL5000 which share the same insulation core and facer.

We recognise that this decision could have some practical implications for some of our customers for which we apologise. We hope in the present circumstances which are explained in further detail below, that customers will understand the reasons behind our decision.

 

 

[jack]

1 hour ago, Triassic said:

I'm interested in using ICF for my basement, does anyone have any cost analysis of the various ICF products compared with traditional shuttering (steel and/or timber)? Which method is the most cost effective?

 

Have you read @Bitpipe's posts on this topic? Very useful info.

[Triassic]

33 minutes ago, jack said:

 

Have you read @Bitpipe's posts on this topic? Very useful info.

Oh yes, I've read them all. 

 

I was interested in the various other systems mentioned on page one of this thread and their cost/value from the users prespective.

[Gone West]

21 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The stuff about aluminium "foil" on PIR is just a bit of scaremongering.  Go and look at a sheet of PIR.  What you will find is that the silver surface is really silver paper, with a thin glass fibre scrim under some types.  It is not aluminium foil, as such, or if it is it is only a few microns thick as a coating on some form of binder, and as such there is not enough of it to react in in any significant way with wet concrete, at least not to any degree worth worrying about, let alone debating to the nth degree.

 

This afternoon I pulled a bit of scrap 50mm Celotex out and peeled off the silver layer, and I can say with absolute certainty that it is some form of "silver" coated or painted paper-like material.  I'll take some photos on Monday if there is any doubt about this.

That's interesting because I used a small amount of Recticel in my build and that had a reasonably thick aluminium layer. I even went to the bother of sealing all the cut edges with aluminium tape because I thought there was potential for the Pentane or whatever gas it was to leak out. This was several years ago and things may now have changed.

[Jeremy Harris]

11 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

That's interesting because I used a small amount of Recticel in my build and that had a reasonably thick aluminium layer. I even went to the bother of sealing all the cut edges with aluminium tape because I thought there was potential for the Pentane or whatever gas it was to leak out. This was several years ago and things may now have changed.

 

 

I think things may have changed, Peter, as the bit of 100mm PIR I used to insulate our old loft hatch definitely had a shiny aluminium foil layer, much as you describe, but the last sheets of 50mm Celotex I bought (when I was adding insulation to the old thermal store) seemed to have very thin aluminium foil on one side and what looked like silver painted paper on the other.  I've no idea what particular type of Celotex it was, it was just whatever was on the shelf at the local BM.  It was offcuts of this I used to make an insulated lid to go under our borehole cover, to prevent the pipes from freezing, and when I stuck aluminium foil tape to it, and then pulled it off to correct an error, it was clear that the silver layer was really just like paper.

Edited September 16, 2017 by JSHarris

[ADLIan]

Recticel traditionally been great quality. As for Celotex - after recent events make your own mind up. If the foil face is that bad then thermal properties must be open to question too.

[Triassic]

Does anyone have the UK contact details for Nudura ICF, I'd like to get a price off them.

[Triassic]

Having looked at the various systems, some use plastic cross ties and others are wholly formed of polystyrene. I assume the ICF systems using plastic ( or on a few cases steel) ties, will be stronger? Is there a definitive list of which system uses what, or is it a case of looking at ever web site for the answer?

[Jeremy Harris]

On 15/09/2017 at 19:22, JSHarris said:

The stuff about aluminium "foil" on PIR is just a bit of scaremongering.  Go and look at a sheet of PIR.  What you will find is that the silver surface is really silver paper, with a thin glass fibre scrim under some types.  It is not aluminium foil, as such, or if it is it is only a few microns thick as a coating on some form of binder, and as such there is not enough of it to react in in any significant way with wet concrete, at least not to any degree worth worrying about, let alone debating to the nth degree.

 

This afternoon I pulled a bit of scrap 50mm Celotex out and peeled off the silver layer, and I can say with absolute certainty that it is some form of "silver" coated or painted paper-like material.  I'll take some photos on Monday if there is any doubt about this.

 

 

A bit late, but I got around to digging out the bit of scrap Celotex and taking some photos of the "foil".  I will go on and do so reactivity tests with hydrochloric acid and then sodium hydroxide, and a bit of ready-mix mortar later, as they are the  strongest alkalis and acid I have readily available.   Meanwhile, this is what the two different sides of the sheet sof 50mm Celotex I have looks like, close up, with the surface layer partially peeled off.

 

First, This is the printed side, which seems to be an extremely thin layer of aluminium foil bonded directly to the foam, with no sort of paper or fibre underlay.  What looks like fluff is just bits of the surface of the foam that have come away:

 

 

and this is the non-printed side, that looks a bit duller and seems to be coated woth some type of silver coated/painted paper:

The fibrous paper-like material is clearly visible on this side, and it doesn't tear away like the very thin foil on the other side at all.

 

With luck I should have some more photos of how the surfaces look after they've been exposed to cement, sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid tomorrow.  I suspect the aluminium layer will just get oxidised away, not sure what the effect may be on the underlying foam, or the paper-like layer.

 

 

[Mr Punter]

I have some of the Celotex CF5000 and it has proper aluminium facings both sides.  It goes grey after contact with cement.

[Jeremy Harris]

The foil on that CF5000 looks very different, and much thicker, than the silver stuff on the sheets I have.  If nothing else, this illustrates a wide variation in surface treatment between the different types, which is useful to know.

[najem-icf]

I had a look at some of the old Ballytherm, Kingspan and Celotex stuff we had laying around and they all  seem to have an aluminium coating of sorts.  Some are admittedly thinner than others - Celotex especially seems to have a very very thin veil of foil on a backing product - it does look like paper to be fair.  @JSHarris have you managed to do some conclusive testing yet?

 

I am now wondering if the reason not to have the concrete come into contact with foil faced insulation is more to do with its reaction with the dummy foil.  I still maintain that it is not a good idea to have concrete come into contact with the board at all due to the uncertainties.  I prefer to play it safe than to take the risk - a roll of polythene will set you back around £20 for 100m² - hardly breaking the bank and would at least give peace of mind in case the scaremongering is true.

 

The Celotex announcement came as no surprise - people in the industry have been saying it for years.  In North America, they refer to PIR/PUR insulation as pure gasoline.  Fire crews are told that if a building they are attending an incident at contains PIR/PUR insulation, get everyone out and just wait until it finishes.  Almost on a daily basis there is a stick frame building on fire in the US.  Also heard that PIR/PUR insulation is going up again in price in October...

[Jeremy Harris]

I have some mortar that's been sitting on one side of a sample of Celotex for a few days now.  I'll remove it later and then do a test on the other side of the board, so see what difference there may be between the "silver paper" side and the very thin foil side.  I doubt any effect will be significant, as the amount of material available to react, plus the fact that people have put concrete onto foil-faced material without ill effects showing, would seem to indicate that this isn't likely to be a serious real world problem.

 

As to the flammability of PIR, then it's not really very flammable when compared to other foam products, certainly no where near as flammable as EPS or XPS, for example, which has been the fuel for some very nasty facade fires in the past, far worse in many ways than PIR, because of the way EPS/XPS drips burning, molten, polystyrene down walls and over openings.  At least PIR just degrades, chars and gives off flammable decomposition products when subjected to continuous heating, yet it remains a solid, albeit a very charred one, on the surface to which it is attached.  It also tends to be non-sustaining for small fire (see the "blowtorch test" results, for example), whereas EPS/XPS is very self-sustaining once ignited, the spread of fire through it only really being limited by the availability of oxygen.

Edited September 26, 2017 by JSHarris

[najem-icf]

9 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I have some mortar that's been sitting on one side of a sample of Celotex for a few days now.  I'll remove it later and then do a test on the other side of the board, so see what difference there may be between the "silver paper" side and the very thin foil side.  I doubt any effect will be significant, as the amount of material available to react, plus the fact that people have put concrete onto foil-faced material without ill effects showing, would seem to indicate that this isn't likely to be a serious real world problem.

I doubt the risk of concrete burning off the foil is something that will happen in the short term - so I guess we will just have to "watch this space" - I have asked the a colleague who works in the Built Environment section of a University here to see if he can assist me with determining the longer term effects of this kind of scenario.  If nothing else, it is an interesting topic.

 

9 hours ago, JSHarris said:

As to the flammability of PIR, then it's not really very flammable when compared to other foam products, certainly no where near as flammable as EPS or XPS, for example, which has been the fuel for some very nasty facade fires in the past, far worse in many ways than PIR, because of the way EPS/XPS drips burning, molten, polystyrene down walls and over openings.  At least PIR just degrades, chars and gives off flammable decomposition products when subjected to continuous heating, yet it remains a solid, albeit a very charred one, on the surface to which it is attached.  It also tends to be non-sustaining for small fire (see the "blowtorch test" results, for example), whereas EPS/XPS is very self-sustaining once ignited, the spread of fire through it only really being limited by the availability of oxygen.

Oh gosh - I strongly disagree with you here.  EPS with FRA has an ignition point of 360°C.  Prior to this EPS will melt at source but will not spread flame.  There are numerous tests that have been conducted that have confirmed this.  If the EPS perishes, you have a monolithic wall of concrete with no breaks in it to facilitate the spread of flame.  The foam products of yesteryear (mainly ceiling tiles in kitchens) have long since ceased existence.  All ICF EPS/XPS now use Polymeric Fire Retardants as it became illegal in North America to use HBCD.  As we know, North America is the worlds biggest ICF market.  EPS is 98% air.

 

PUR on the other hand is a known flammable product, decomposition from fire can produce significant amounts of carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide.(<- straight out of wikipedia!)  Grenfell is a prime example of what PUR/PIR insulation can do.  The internet is littered with examples of PUR/PIR fires.

 

Have a look at this:

 

 

and this: