Solo Timber Frame

[Gus Potter]

Interesting reading this.

 

Over the years the waters seem to have become more muddied by the TF suppliers making it harder to compare quotes. Scotland in some ways are more ahead with the TF concept.. long storey... in some ways we went though this journey 20 years ago.

 

Just roughly a lot of the projects on BH are of a good size, some with a significant value. Given this it may be worthwhile just asking how much the basic TF costs.. walls  + roof. Given many of the project values here on BH there could be saving to be made by looking at this and paying someone else to design the insulation, advise on the windows doors and other high cost elements... perhaps take your time to choose these elements and shop about your self.

 

There is often not that much money in the structural kit compared with the rest of the job.. it is the extras that seems to be where the Tf manufacture's are making their margin. Also, as soon as you want to make any changes as you go then each time you need to go back to the TF to check out insulation values etc..and at what cost. maybe as a self builder you should consider the need for flexibilty. As you go you want to make changes. Maybe there is merit in getting the basic kit up, the roof weather proof and working with your local builder as you go?

 

 

 

[oldkettle]

16 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Maybe there is merit in getting the basic kit up, the roof weather proof and working with your local builder as you go?

 

Doesn't the kit define what insulation can be used to a significant extent? I.e. for example 140mm frame means Warmcell is out of the question? 

With regards to extras, AFAIK not all manufacturers have doors/windows as options so they seem to be making their margin on kits and installation. 

 

 

[dpmiller]

not sure what's currently happening what with COVID etc, but some of the NI-based frame companies will travel over to erect a kit. You might try Leadon, Kilbroney, Kudos, Kingspan. Some of the other companies aim more at the volume market and are less likely to be interested, but any and all may be happy to put a kit on a lorry and send it over, with an allowance for local sourcing of insulation etc.

[Gus Potter]

Good point @oldkettle yes the kit will drive your insulation options to some extent. You can get prices for the basic kit with different wall thickness' for example. Thicker stud walls may result in less studs. For all, the timber studs have less insulation performance than the insulation so when you calculate the u value of the wall you need to take into account the stud density.

 

There are so many variations to get your head around so hence the basic approach I mentioned to get you started. As old kettle says some TF suppliers may be making their margin in a different way... just on the kit with the offering of installation. They may have their own crane for example and a good experienced assembly squad.

 

 

 

[BartW]

12 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Good point @oldkettle yes the kit will drive your insulation options to some extent. You can get prices for the basic kit with different wall thickness' for example. Thicker stud walls may result in less studs. For all, the timber studs have less insulation performance than the insulation so when you calculate the u value of the wall you need to take into account the stud density.

 

There are so many variations to get your head around so hence the basic approach I mentioned to get you started. As old kettle says some TF suppliers may be making their margin in a different way... just on the kit with the offering of installation. They may have their own crane for example and a good experienced assembly squad.

 

 

 

Most kits seem to be 140mm stud, as a basic shell, so that seems to be the common build method with most suppliers. 
 

Many of them seem to be achieving the target uValues with a combination of different materials. 
 

 

[PeterW]

3 minutes ago, BartW said:

Most kits seem to be 140mm stud, as a basic shell, so that seems to be the common build method with most suppliers. 
 

Many of them seem to be achieving the target uValues with a combination of different materials. 
 

 

Depends on the target though - if it is meet BRegs then they can do it, usually with 120mm PIR in the cavity, or 140mm rockwool plus 30mm of insulated plasterboard. But is that what you want ..? It may be the “cheapest” but what would adding the 30mm insulated plasterboard to the 120mm PIR do..? How much more efficient would the house be and what is the full lifecycle cost ..?

 

Most of the TF companies don’t look at this (probably with exception of MBC and a couple of the “passiv” suppliers) and as such they don’t consider what you are asking for. I’d expect that most of their customers when asked what the requirements for the house are start with “4 bedrooms, 2 en-suite and a nice sunny open plan kitchen with an island”, not with “I’d like my heating bills to be less than £300 a year....”

 

 

And if a supplier says they don’t know how to do that, find another supplier ... 

[ProDave]

On 07/12/2020 at 23:57, Gus Potter said:

Just roughly a lot of the projects on BH are of a good size, some with a significant value. Given this it may be worthwhile just asking how much the basic TF costs.. walls  + roof. Given many of the project values here on BH there could be saving to be made by looking at this and paying someone else to design the insulation, advise on the windows doors and other high cost elements... perhaps take your time to choose these elements and shop about your self.

 

I tried that with one of the major Scottish Timber Frame suppliers.  I was not happy with their level of insulation so dropped into the conversation that I would be looking to upgrade the insulation levels to meet my requirements.  They withdrew from the conversation and refused to quote saying some waffle like "there is no synergy between what we offer and what you want"

[Jane0408]

I have used Solo Timber Frame for 2 buildings. Fantastic service, nothing too much trouble and can include many extras where others can't.

[Jane0408]

On 09/02/2020 at 16:05, Jeremy Harris said:

I think we spoke to them at the Swindon self-build centre years ago, when we were looking around.  IIRC, we dismissed them because their spec was pretty basic, it just met building regs and was nowhere near the sort of energy performance we were looking for.

Solo will manufacture to your spec. Most Timber Frame companies offer basic Building Regs kits but it is up to the buyer to choose a higher spec, as I did with Solo Timber Frame.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Jane0408
spelling mistake

[BartW]

I tried speaking to Solo after the super high quote, and enquired whether any information I had provided them with made them feel the project was more complicated than it really is. Got no response... Not great, but it's ok. 

 

I nearly signed up with Lakeland Timber, but decided to give English Brothers a chance. Had a chat today, and Jay comes across really positive and knowledgeable, and overall pleasure to deal with. Needless to say I have my hopes up, and fingers crossed the price might reflect that.

 

Wish me luck!

 

PS. Fleming Homes would initially not quote as allegedly drawings not to scale (although they were), so I got them planning drawing set, only to learn there were too many assumptions for them to give me the price. So they now insist I get the structural drawings by an engineer (something that a timber frame supplier would otherwise provide as part of the package). It does not sound like we will be getting anywhere. Shame, they were the top of the preference list. I wish I had saved six weeks of trying...

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, BartW said:

Wish me luck!

good luck! it's great that there will be experiences from members here of multiple different timber frame companies. it will definitely give a broader range of options for future readers.

 

keep us updated with your progress.

[TonyT]

Have you considered just getting a joinery company to build the frame on site.

and dealing with the insulation yourself?

 

 

[BartW]

I happen to own a joinery company, but it could be counter productive, as taking resources from "where it's at" means you have to stop earning. And having a TF supplier do both was the deciding factor why I did not go wood crete ICF and got my refurbishment company lads to erect the structure.

 

[newhome]

On 10/12/2020 at 08:36, ProDave said:

I tried that with one of the major Scottish Timber Frame suppliers.  I was not happy with their level of insulation so dropped into the conversation that I would be looking to upgrade the insulation levels to meet my requirements.  They withdrew from the conversation and refused to quote saying some waffle like "there is no synergy between what we offer and what you want"

I think that’s probably because they are always busy and it’s not worth their while going off piste in terms of what they generally offer for a single build. They can offer a U value of 0.11 via one of their standard offerings. 
 

[Hilldes]

Here is my experience this year - I wish there had been more on here to help guide the supplier selection process...

 

Kingspan Timber Solutions- very helpful but ultimately could not get price down to a reasonable level for the insulated frame. Did have reasonably priced options for a weathertight package. The only supplier I came across that offered 89mm studs as opposed to 140mm - to be fair they did offer their 140mm stud option but noting above point on price. Not many options for insulation: basically PIR for TF with no option for uninsulated frame - I preferred a mix of mineral wool and PIR. I raised a few questions on here about claimed U values - some uncertainty as to whether U values could be achieved in practice given specifications. Liked the idea of a SIPs roof but it required purlins that would have been intrusive with our 1.5 storie design.

 

Flemming - price was too high.

Ecosips - helpful and reasonably priced SIPs solution. Put off SIPs as limitted experience of this on Buildhub - perhaps even some  misunderstanding. Would have struggled to hit target u values with SIPs alone - would need additional insulation such as PIR.
 

Solo - a very close second in terms of best price and  very helpful and responsive. Was very little experience of them on Buildhub that I could find.

Went with MBC uninsulated frame as best price and a great reputation on Buildhub. In their quote they offered various  costed insulation options for standard 140mm timber frame and a separate option for the passive frame (with Larsen truss frame and Warmcell insulation) - very nice but beyond my budget. Have completed frame design and now in manufacture- positive experience so far.

[BartW]

Ok, so I have completed this part of the quest, and...

 

I went with English Brothers. 

 

A lot to share, but in a nutshell, the initial experience with the company and their attitude got me sold.

 

Deposit paid

 

 

[LA3222]

14 minutes ago, BartW said:

Ok, so I have completed this part of the quest, and...

 

I went with English Brothers. 

 

A lot to share, but in a nutshell, the initial experience with the company and their attitude got me sold.

 

Deposit paid

 

 

That seems like a good choice. I did have English Brothers in my sift, ultimately went with SIPs though however English Brothers were an attractive option.

 

Hope everything goes well for you?

[Buzz]

Happy for you , this part of the process can be frustrating,  I have to say Jay came across as someone who gets what you are trying to do and talks good old fashion common sense based on what you need as well as what you think you need .

[BartW]

Yes, I admit the way that Jay held my enquiry was very reassuring, and refreshingly straightforward. 
 

Also, their company values resonated very well with me, and the way I run my businesses. 
 

I will try to provide a brief summary of my experiences so far in a new thread later, as I feel it could help many in their early evaluations. 
 

Bart