SteamyTea Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Carrerahill said: It so happens I am working on a new build BMW showroom right now Hope they treat you better than customers, it is the 'sliminess' that gets me. 2 minutes ago, vivienz said: we have no shelter at all between us and the southwesterlies that come in A good SE needed then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: A good SE needed then. I think that may be overkill for a canopy over the front door. I have a 5m high brise soleil fixed to the front of the building next to the door and glass/steel balustrades around the balconies upstairs all with similar fixings and bracket sizes, and all of which remain firmly in place. Following this, if I have 3 well attached brackets carrying the glass through their middle, with what look like similar sized attachment plates and fixings, I think that will do the job adequately. I'm not sure that an SE could add much more to a canopy apart from cost and over-specifying. I've encountered really good SEs and ones that have added no value to the build but cost a fortune for what they offered, so I'm wary of employing them just for the sake of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, Carrerahill said: Assuming you have a good substrate to fix to I do not see that being an issue. The substrate should be fine, as either side of our front glazing there are pretty hefty timber posts, made up from multiple studs (this is the inside view, but the structure is the same outside): I can easily fit hefty coach screws back into the frame either side, all I need to do is rout out rebates in the cladding either side, to get a flat area for the brackets to bear against (the outer wall is clad with waney edge larch). There's a batten right next to the glazing on either side, so in total there would be around 130mm depth of timber where the brackets go, with that being stiffened up by being the outer part of the twin stud wall frame. so the timber in the photo above is only spaced around 120mm back from the outer posts, and connected to them both by the OSB lining around the opening as well as the short timber spacers that keep the twin stud frames apart. The problem is finding a fabricator that can make a neat looking canopy, ideally without a cross bar at the front edge. The distance between the inside faces of the timber frame opening is 1900mm, so the gallows brackets needs to be on roughly 2000mm centres (might be slightly less than this, I need to go back out and find the exact edges of the battens either side of the glazing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 47 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Hope they treat you better than customers, it is the 'sliminess' that gets me. A good SE needed then. We are working with the architect not BMW themselves. I have done quite a few BMW's over the years and largely the architect is given total design responsibility reporting to the BMW estates lot so I never need to deal with them although they are sometimes at the meetings, in fairness those guys are just building/construction/estates managers doing a construction industry job and always seem to be nice guys. I think all car sales involves slime! Probably why I keep my cars in top condition and keep them for a long time to avoid dealing with car sales! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 36 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said: The substrate should be fine, as either side of our front glazing there are pretty hefty timber posts, made up from multiple studs (this is the inside view, but the structure is the same outside): I can easily fit hefty coach screws back into the frame either side, all I need to do is rout out rebates in the cladding either side, to get a flat area for the brackets to bear against (the outer wall is clad with waney edge larch). There's a batten right next to the glazing on either side, so in total there would be around 130mm depth of timber where the brackets go, with that being stiffened up by being the outer part of the twin stud wall frame. so the timber in the photo above is only spaced around 120mm back from the outer posts, and connected to them both by the OSB lining around the opening as well as the short timber spacers that keep the twin stud frames apart. The problem is finding a fabricator that can make a neat looking canopy, ideally without a cross bar at the front edge. The distance between the inside faces of the timber frame opening is 1900mm, so the gallows brackets needs to be on roughly 2000mm centres (might be slightly less than this, I need to go back out and find the exact edges of the battens either side of the glazing). If you have a plan ping it over and I will pass it on and get you a price - I'd say source the glazing locally if this did work out for you and just fit it up yourself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Carrerahill said: If you have a plan ping it over and I will pass it on and get you a price - I'd say source the glazing locally if this did work out for you and just fit it up yourself. Thanks. What I need to do is find out the spec of the glass, so I can work out how far apart the supports can be and still have it well within limits. Never done structural calcs for glass before, though. It'll probably need pretty thick plate laminated glass. maybe 12mm thick at a guess, just to take the bending load. OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 6mm toughened has a max span of 1230mm but they also recommend that you use laminated if it’s a single panel and should keep toughened to max 3sqm in any one pane. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, PeterW said: 6mm toughened has a max span of 1230mm but they also recommend that you use laminated if it’s a single panel and should keep toughened to max 3sqm in any one pane. Being a canopy I'd guess it has to be toughened and laminated, just for safety. The area I need is OK, the glass needs to be around 2600mm wide by maybe 800mm deep, so a bit over 2m². The problem is finding out the maximum allowable span between supports for thicker glass. I'm guessing I'll need either 10mm or 12mm thick glass, and it needs to be able to span a distance of a bit under 2000mm between supports. Ideally I just want a couple of stainless gallows brackets, one either side, fixed to the timber structure, and spanning the gap across the front glazing. I want to fit it across this glazing, just above the front door, pretty much along the line of the lower edge of the stacking cill. I can rout out flat sections in the cladding either side to give the brackets a flat area to bolt down to easily enough, just need to remove a few nails first.: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said: I can rout out flat sections in the cladding either side to give the brackets a flat area to bolt down to easily enough, just need to remove a few nails first. Can you not take off some cladding and screw onto the timber frame, then just cut a neat hold in each bracket and slot the cladding back? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: Can you not take off some cladding and screw onto the timber frame, then just cut a neat hold in each bracket and slot the cladding back? Yes, could do. Might be a better way to do it, too. It would be easy enough to just add some additional battens around the brackets and then cut the cladding to fit tightly to the brackets. It would probably look neater, too, having the brackets inset into the cladding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 We did similar on a place with bris soleil with slate cladding on timber frame. The brackets have welded flat vertical sections either end screwed into the timber frame. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Onoff said: This thread is making me even hungrier Can we have a “groan” emoji also a “ F off” one ? . Yeah admin ? . I’d use both of those frequently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 That looks very neat indeed. Has me wondering whether or not I could completely hide the vertical part of the brackets. If they were fabricated from 25mm deep stainless box (not sure if that would be stiff enough?) then I could strip part of the cladding off, remove the 50mm x 25mm vertical battens that run either side of the glazing, bolt the frames directly to the underlying timber posts and then fit new 50 x 25 battens alongside and refit the cladding over the top of the brackets. I have a few lengths of spare cladding, so if I messed some up it wouldn't be the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said: Has me wondering whether or not I could completely hide the vertical part of the brackets. If they were fabricated from 25mm deep stainless box (not sure if that would be stiff enough?) then I could strip part of the cladding off, remove the 50mm x 25mm vertical battens that run either side of the glazing, bolt the frames directly to the underlying timber posts and then fit new 50 x 25 battens alongside and refit the cladding over the top of the brackets. I have a few lengths of spare cladding, so if I messed some up it wouldn't be the end of the world. You could use 10mm thick flat bar for the vertical parts. You may even have enough room for stiffening where it joins the box section. You could have galv powder coated steel if the stainless was expensive to fabricate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagas Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Recently got this from house of canopies as there isn't much room above the door for a substantial structure. We just wanted something to keep the elements out when entering/leaving the house. Seems ok 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 That's similar to the sort of thing we're after, but without the centre support, as we have no where to fix one to. My thoughts are that, as well as provide a bit of added shelter from the rain whilst unlocking the door, it may well also provide a degree of protection from over-heating, especially if we go for a slightly tinted glass panel. At the moment we have solar reflective film on the front glazing, which works well, but is now beginning to suffer from being constantly attacked by this chap (he, or his mates, have been banging away at it every hour or so for days now, same happened last year, and the year before): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) @Jeremy Harris there are a few designs that you could probably “borrow” from them. https://www.houseofcanopies.co.uk/downloads/1560501529CAN.C.2079.755.pdf 10mm glass as standard in these, but 12mm would be ideal at that sort of width. You could use 12mm stainless bars as crosswise supports if needed just to give more rigidity. Edited January 17, 2020 by PeterW Typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSS Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 On 16/01/2020 at 12:25, Dreadnaught said: @vivienz, in the unlikely event that your impeccable taste would accept something like this, this is what I had been considering before. Its possible to buy the various chromed metal parts from AliExpresss and have the toughened glass made here. Unobtrusive, probably quite cheap, probably easier to mount. Or you could buy the whole thing from B&Q for £172 like I have. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 16 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said: At the moment we have solar reflective film on the front glazing, which works well, but is now beginning to suffer from being constantly attacked by this chap (he, or his mates, have been banging away at it every hour or so for days now, same happened last year, and the year before): We had a similar problem with a crow attacking one of our windows to the extent that there were blood spatters all over the window sill. Maybe a temporary silhouette of a cat or fox on the inside of the glass would deter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 28 minutes ago, PeterStarck said: We had a similar problem with a crow attacking one of our windows to the extent that there were blood spatters all over the window sill. Maybe a temporary silhouette of a cat or fox on the inside of the glass would deter it. I'm currently thinking along the lines of having a remotely controlled GPMG mounted so that it fires across the doorstep at pheasant height... The main problem seems to be that anything inside the glass can't been easily seen from outside, because the external film works a bit like a mirror. I can put my face right next to the inside of the door and the pheasant takes no notice at all, but just carries on banging his head against the glass. I'd have to fit something to the outside of the glass, on top of the film, for it to be seen. It's a seasonal issue, or seems to be, as for most of the year pheasants will just sit (and crap) on our front doorstep, presumably as it's a relatively sheltered spot. For a few months we have to endure the damned things attacking their own reflections, though. If it was anywhere but the front door I'd be able to put something outside to stop them getting so close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I had a similar problem with a small bird (forget the breed) that just sat all day on the wing of my Landrover pecking at his own reflection in the wing mirror and crapping on the wing. I used to put a plastic bag over the mirror to stop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, ProDave said: had a similar problem with a small bird Me to, the threat of an injunction stopped her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 On 16/01/2020 at 11:52, vivienz said: I've always known that our site is exposed to strong south-westerly conditions but the storms and seemingly constant rain since October have emphasised just how much, and water regularly gets driven under our front door on the south face of the building. I need to get some rain protection in place, at the very least a canopy and have seen my heart's desire on pinterest. Of course, it looks expensive. Can anyone give me some start points on where to source one of these? It looks sturdy enough to withstand the winds that come sweeping across. I don't think a polycarbonate one will look nice or be up to the job and I'm not confident of anything reliant on a couple of fixing points as it will need to be over 2m wide. Any pointers most welcome! I'd be concerned about water pouring through the gap between house and glass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said: I'm currently thinking along the lines of having a remotely controlled GPMG mounted so that it fires across the doorstep at pheasant height... Slight overkill . If you like pheasant to eat an air rifle would would soon stop it's unsociable behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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