Zoot's Extention- progress.

[dpmiller]

7 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Anyone's opinions on the 2.5mm galv steel lintel thing + bricks?

 

Also if I'm given an invoice a week ago+ (friday before last), for timber frame & groundwork.. when should I pay/ what is the 'correct' timeframe?

 

Its a bit odd as the floor insulation not done yet (last on the groundwork itemised list) plus the haggle over the agreed 50mm celotex (instead of 100mm whatever it was/ polystyrene/ poly-something? on the quote) plus 22mm board floor hasn't been finalised.

 

What I might say is Im happy to pay once the insulation & floor materials are here, should he gets the hump if I say "not paying until groundwork done.. & its not all done yet" as really I should do (but if I were to, he'll just batten the hatches & not agree the floor in place of half the 100mm poly-whatever insulation.. then we're at odds.. then he refuses this, that, generally plays up: I cannot have the stress of this).

 The floor insulation won't be "done" because in your quote it says

 

" supply 100mm insulation "

 

which makes it your job.

Just like the purchase and install of the wall insulation, loft insulation, and plasterboard too.

[Russell griffiths]

Morning mr @zoothorn now how about this, every time you ask a question and I reply we can have a little bet that can be judged by the forum, so if you ask a question and I answer incorrectly I will lose, if I answer correctly then you lose. 

Why don’t we say £100 a question just to make it interesting 

 

for sombody who cannot look up the price of a sheet of insulation you seem very confident that I’m wrong, so should be an easy £100 for you. 

 

What ya reckon, 

 

 

[JFDIY]

Smaller window would have meant less sag.......oh, wait hold on a moment I'm getting deja vu.

 

[Gone West]

13 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Good question. All of 2-3mm Peter. [2.5mm]. The whole thing is not only bowing down 3/4" but twisting forward in the middle too, & door one nearby: both have alot of block weight above.

Do you think it's a flat steel bar like I was referring to or something like this. Did you see it being fitted.

Catnic Lintel ANG 2400mm

[zoothorn]

18 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

Do you think it's a flat steel bar like I was referring to or something like this. Did you see it being fitted.

Catnic Lintel ANG 2400mm

Good morning Peter-

 

yes its something like this, exactly.. but a grey galv finish (& a 45* slope to the rear not r-angle). Yes I saw it fitted & watched the weight in the middle sag. Its no more than 3mm thick. I'll try do a photo later today. No-one on site it seems today.

 

[Mods- is there an 'ignore' function on the site?]

 

thanks zoot.

[PeterW]

Probably an IG lintel then if it was galvanized. They are pretty common, look like a sloping “L” and are fairly easy to get 

[Gone West]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

yes its something like this, exactly.. but a grey galv finish (& a 45* slope to the rear not r-angle).

That type are around 2.5mm thick steel because they are folded so don't need to be thick like a flat bar. They should be supported in the centre until the blockwork has set, especially if a long length, as @Russell griffiths has indicated. If you saw blocks being laid with the lintel unsupported have a word with the builder.

[zoothorn]

41 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Probably an IG lintel then if it was galvanized. They are pretty common, look like a sloping “L” and are fairly easy to get 

 

They're sort of like this, but do not have the additional back area which lookslike a strengthening bar area.

[PeterW]

Ok so I’ve no idea which sort you’re looking at, but this is an IG Timber Frame lintel - the black line is the lintel 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Anyway I can't find the type that's been used, Peter's eg above is indeed closest. And as I said I'm happy to be proved wrong on the cost.. it seems maybe a concrete lintel -is- less.. but I can't be certain/ can't find my exact type.

 

So why on earth would one of these have been used instead?? Ive never known anything so barking mad if the concrete type cheaper.

[zoothorn]

@PeterW a 'Timber Frame' lintel.. aha ok. as its solely doing duties to the outer block layer Id never have known this is what it was called.

 

This back angle up/ out, then up 90* again to the 'bed' is morelike to shape I saw.

 

So, these type -had- to be used then, & a concrete type was never an option? But surely it should simply be thicker then.

[MJNewton]

The strength comes not from the thickness but the shape, in particular the vertical web section. I've got an 'extra heavy duty' IG lintel here that's 4m long and still made from steel that's only mm's thick. 

[zoothorn]

I've just got back & find a new quote in my mailbox.. from builder. The sod has quoted me for both 'supply 50mm insulation & 22mm floor.. £445'.

 

Plus another £445 for the drain he absolutely has being saying he'd put in for me (clearly implying bc the whole thing's 14" lower, the BCO wanted a drain as a consequense, then he'd do this for me). No mention of any hardcore or anything covering it either.

 

Plus another £200 for the retaining wall needed to cover the exposed inside area (another consequence of the whole thing being 14" lower than was on the plan, & I was totally unnaware was to happen/ or knew why was happening for 2 weeks of the build).

 

Plus another £400 for skimming off the drive area by 100mm (in order for -me- to have a bit easier time constructing another fkn retaining wall of sleepers, all around it probably costing me £250.. yet another consequence of it being 14" lower). He gave me clear indication this would just be a digger hire for the day, nothing more/ shrugging it off as inconsequential 'tidying up'.

 

Utter sod.

[zoothorn]

Just now, MJNewton said:

The strength comes not from the thickness but the shape, in particular the vertical web section. I've got an 'extra heavy duty' IG lintel here that's 4m long and still made from steel that's only mm's thick. 

 

Ok, that's helpful MJN.. but is it bowed in the middle because of a weight of 5sqM of block above it?

 

How can an 'extra HD' lintel be only mm's thick-?

[MJNewton]

In the absence of any point loads (eg joists, other beams etc) a lintel only carries the weight of the triangle above it so if this is a window opening it's not going to be much. You'll need to post a picture to have any reasonable chance of someone saying why it's bent. Yes, I know your camera is bust but you really need to get another. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by MJNewton

[jamiehamy]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I've just got back & find a new quote in my mailbox.. from builder. The sod has quoted me for both 'supply 50mm insulation & 22mm floor.. £445'.

 

Plus another £445 for the drain he absolutely has being saying he'd put in for me (clearly implying bc the whole thing's 14" lower, the BCO wanted a drain as a consequense, then he'd do this for me). No mention of any hardcore or anything covering it either.

 

Plus another £200 for the retaining wall needed to cover the exposed inside area (another consequence of the whole thing being 14" lower than was on the plan, & I was totally unnaware was to happen/ or knew why was happening for 2 weeks of the build).

 

Plus another £400 for skimming off the drive area by 100mm (in order for -me- to have a bit easier time constructing another fkn retaining wall of sleepers, all around it probably costing me £250.. yet another consequence of it being 14" lower). He gave me clear indication this would just be a digger hire for the day, nothing more/ shrugging it off as inconsequential 'tidying up'.

 

Utter sod.

Well, just reject the quote. Find someone else to do that work for cheaper. 

 

That's the absolute beauty of quotes. 

 

Invoices for work done are different of course. 

 

[MJNewton]

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

How can an 'extra HD' lintel be only mm's thick-?

 

For the very reason I already gave. 

[pudding]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Ok, that's helpful MJN.. but is it bowed in the middle because of a weight of 5sqM of block above it?

 

How can an 'extra HD' lintel be only mm's thick-?

Google bending moments and second moments of area. Actually - here - https://www.google.com/search?q=bending+moment+second+moment+of+area&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB795GB795&oq=bending+moment+second+moment+of+area&aqs=chrome..69i57.6962j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Edited November 18, 2019 by pudding

[Danny68]

Zoothorn ,you need to concentrate  on what's important  the thickness  of a lintel isn't. What's important  is the correct installation .if you say its bowed 18mm then tell the builder to put it right . An now armed with the correct way to install a lintel explain  when he objects to having to do the job twice  if he had propped  it up in the 1st place then he wouldn't have too. Same goes for any extra work you have to have done due to the wrong start depth of the build  it his cost and you need to make that abundantly clear . 

[PeterW]

Just to confirm - IG recommend a batten tight behind the bottom edge to stop twisting. If that isn’t there, it’s not installed according to Manufacturers Instructions  

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

Well, just reject the quote. Find someone else to do that work for cheaper. 

 

That's the absolute beauty of quotes. 

 

Invoices for work done are different of course. 

 

 

Fair comment. But my point wasn't a grumble re. the cost (£200 for doing the inside cover-exposed-area job.. was less than I thought).

 

Its the tricky situation of most of these being a consequence of the +14" depth situation which wasn't on my plan, a plan given to him/ he very happy with, but he effectively tore up either bc A) it wasn't feasable from the Timber Frame Co's structural pov [ IE primarily: the collars maybe needed to go 14" lower, maybe: its not definitely confirmed this is true > so EVERYTHING had to follow on: room positions shifted down/ dividing floor placement realtive to outside ground lower/ floor relative to outside ground lower EVERY-SINGLE-THING.. was this absolutely neccessary to shift collars down? I'll never ever know].. or B) it was just "cheaper to just lower the collars than on his plan/ & don't tell him.. when he cottons on it'll be too late to do anything/ he'll have no choice but play ball".

 

I'm 50/ 50 on which is true. Either way its caused a myriad of added work to do a drain, two retaining walls, levelling off drive to diminish the ground offset: & the question, in my book, of who is "responsible" considering (in my book) I never wanted it, or knew it ALL was going to be, this wretched 14" additionally low.

[zoothorn]

Just now, PeterW said:

Just to confirm - IG recommend a batten tight behind the bottom edge to stop twisting. If that isn’t there, it’s not installed according to Manufacturers Instructions  

 

Now this is just the info I need.. & concurrs with my feelings on it. But there is no way on earth I can put it to him to redo this- he will shut up shop, the work will stop, & I have no bargaining room on my floor (his original itemised groundwork quote, which he repated the same £figure for on the final quote but only in terms of 'groundwork' leaving off the itemised details.. it was clear the details already listed before, & no need to repeat.. that was the clear as day implication), & he'll go back on this that & the other, like the contoured render we agreed on.. he'll just not do/ it'll be flat/ just as I don't want.

 

The only thing I can do is phone my BCO about it. This I'll do once I can scrape a photo together.

 

All the power lies with these builders however you play it. They can just stop & not continue until you relent. You have to get it continued; they don't, they just go onto the other job. They can wait for payment for this job.. but you can't wait to get the build finished, especially @ the start of winter.

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Just to confirm - IG recommend a batten tight behind the bottom edge to stop twisting. If that isn’t there, it’s not installed according to Manufacturers Instructions  

 

 

If I knew it was an IG (company?) lintel, I could put this to the BCO -if I put it to the builder, the end of good terms/ he'll pop- but it doesn't look the same. Its a farm gate galvanised-look light grey lintel, but definitely this "Timber Frame type" shape.

[zoothorn]

I cannot find these damn lintels exactly, but have found "https://www.less2build.com/catnic-lintel-ctf5-timber-frame--1200mm-50mm-cavity?language=en&currency=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyrOc5dTz5QIVybHtCh2b1gc0EAQYAiABEgICPfD_BwE

 

which says.. " All timber frame models from any manufacturer must be secured with restraint clips (supplied) and a batten (not supplied) to prevent lateral deflection (twist) during the building stage to achieve the loading figures shown. "

 

So I have this to put to my BCO. Ok if he tells builder to redo: is this feasable/ if so, how big a job would this be?

[zoothorn]

Anyone know what 'brick plinth' means..? on my quote:

 

External Blockwork & Brick Plinth (2k).